Behind the Bar with Chalonda White
Back in June I sat down with Chalonda White, self described ‘professional drinker’, presenter of the very funny This Chick Talks Beer podcast, and brains behind Afro Beer Chick. Chalonda also co-hosts The Neat Pour, a bourbon podcast, alongside her husband Nkosi White.
Based just outside of Chicago, Illinois; Chalonda has been an active member of the drinks community for over ten years. I’ve wanted to speak to Chalonda since I stumbled across her Twitter over a year ago. Her sense of humour, her candour, and the way in which she talks about drinks are so refreshing in what can often be an incredibly homogeneous community.
Over the course of this interview we talked about the Chicago beer scene, her work with the #IAmCraftBeer movement, Girls Pint Out, getting into the world of whisky and beer education.
How did you get into beer?
Chalonda: I have to give the credit to my husband. He was the one who got me into craft beer, before that I didn’t know that craft beer was a thing, I used to just drink Heineken and Corona. He introduced me to beer in 2009, my first beer was Sofie. Then when I would go to his place, I would bring beer like “Hey, have you tried this? Have you tried this?” and just kind of became a thing. I haven't looked back; I've been enjoying this whole journey. And it's been oh my gosh, it's been over a decade now!
Helen: I might have this wrong but your husband works in beer right?
Chalonda: No, no, he's just getting his blog started. He has his own thing going on. He has a website called Chi Beer Geeks. And then he does a weekly podcast called Chicago Beer Pass. At first, I was hanging with him and a bunch of his male friends, and I was like “okay, where's the women?”. That led me on a journey to look for other women who drink beer, and that brought me to Girls Pint Out. They had chapters in so many cities at the time, but I noticed I didn't have one in Chicago, so I asked if I could start a chapter here, and they allowed me to. That was in July of 2001… It has been a fun ride.
Helen: Girls Pint Out is a beer focused social group?
Chalonda: Yes, it’s a social meetup. Basically, just being around a bunch of like-minded women who just enjoy their beer. Don’t get me wrong, it's fun to drink with everybody but sometimes… you know how when you're a woman and a beer drinker around men? And you get mansplained as to what they think of beer? It’s just really fun to be with other women who get it. And you aren’t treated less than an equal.
Helen: Absolutely, I think it’s really important to be in a space where you can grow and not feel under scrutiny. What is the beer scene like in Chicago? I follow a couple of Chicago folk online and it looks really cool.
Chalonda: Oh my God. The beer scene here is just bananas! Chicagoland, and when I say that I mean the breweries outside of the city, when I last heard there were 77 breweries in and around the city of Chicago, then around one 160 in the surrounding suburbs. Every time I turn around there’s a new brewery opening up. In each neighbourhood you’re going to get something different which is amazing to explore. There could be breweries only 20 minutes away from me and I haven’t had a chance to get over and visit them yet. It’s crazy.
Helen: That's amazing. I have a bunch of family in Chicago and it’s somewhere I’ve always wanted to visit. Me and my wife were supposed to come across to the States last October for our belated honeymoon so hopefully we’ll be able to rearrange for next year and get Chicago on our list. Especially since lockdown has meant I’m online so much more and I’m way more tuned into what’s happening in beer within America. That’s actually one of the things I love about your podcast, it’s like a snippet of a scene that I would have no idea about otherwise, which is super cool. What made you decide to start This Chick Talks Beer?
Chalonda: You know, it's so funny, I feel bad because I have been so inconsistent with my podcast, because of COVID something is always popping up. I wanted to start it because I had something to say. At first, pre COVID, the focus was beer, just solely beer. And then since COVID, with all these social injustices, I was like “I could talk about beer, and other shit”. I have a big mouth, and I like to use it. Basically.
Helen: Yeah and it’s so refreshing because so many beer podcasts can just be so dry or really male heavy with regards to their panels. Whereas yours is so funny and just such a breath of fresh air. I love your branding too, did you design that yourself?
Chalonda: It actually started off with a concept on Fiverr. I told the guy what I was looking for and he hit me with an initial Afro Beer Chick and I was like “oh, yeah, this is what I'm going for”. And then… I don't know if you've seen that she comes in different versions. I had a daughter of a friend of mine do the other artwork, so the character is always evolving. It's like a little series. I'm actually working on two other concepts right now, just to kind of keep it fresh.
Helen: It’s such a fun and cool design. I’ve got one of your tees too, not enough people do ringers. I read somewhere that you took some time out of beer when you had your kids, what has your experience been like as a mother in beer?
Chalonda: So when I started Girls Pint Out Chicago my girls were pretty young, I mean in 2011 my oldest was 11 and my youngest was 6, which meant it became hard to party and be a responsible parent. I had to step away for a little while but now that I’m a semi-empty nester and have one off in the world, and my baby girl is now 16… now I am like “fuck I can party again!”. It has been a ride, you know, they've always understood. It got to the point where my daughter could bring me a beer and the correct beer glass! I actually did an episode of This Chick Talks Beer with my youngest daughter, asking what it's like to be the daughter of ABC and she is just hilarious.
Helen: That’s so cool when so many people grow up in a household where maybe just your dad drinks beer. It’s really cool for kids to grow up in a less stereotyped environment in that way because it breaks down those barriers.
So in 2019 the #IAmCraftBeer movement came about but I only just saw recently that that movement started because you were unfortunately subject to racial abuse over email from someone in the beer community. I was looking at the pictures of the first event just this morning and I was wondering how that event was for you? How did it feel to have all those people in that positive space?
Chalonda: You know that movement was beautiful, something beautiful and positive came out of that ugliness. Um, that was not the first email that I have received, and it definitely was not the last. I had even started to not post it because I had already received so many. I was so happy to see that beer IS diverse. You know, there is diversity in beer, it’s not just the bearded white dudes drinking it. You have so many different people from many different walks of life in the beer scene. And that is what the movement represents.
I think that’s what my platform represents, beer is diverse. You have women drinking, you have men, you have Black women, you have Hispanic women, you have everybody drinking beer, however when it is marketed, it is not marketed as such. I’ve been asked to promote beer festivals and my first question now is “Can you send me your press kit?”. This gives me an insight as to how you're going to market it. It’s so funny, when I get these press kits and there’s no one that looks like me on them. I see happy young, white men and women. And I'm like “Hey, I was at this beer fest, and I know that there were other Black people there. So why are they not represented? Why are you marketing to one specific group of people?” So yeah, #IAmCraftBeer showed that diversity and we need to push that more often.
Helen: It’s a problem that just keeps perpetuating too, the longer the erasure continues. We started Burum Collective because we wanted to be able to spotlight all of the different people who were working in beer, wine and cider. The lack of representation is an issue across so many industries. Are there hopes to do another event? Maybe later in the year or 2022?
Chalonda: My comfortability still isn’t there yet, with being around large groups but it’s very slowly coming back around. I would love to pick up the #IAmCraftBeer plans where we left off, I mean we had four events planned when COVID hit, just when we were in the thick of things. But the idea is to kick it back off, at some point once it's more safe.
Helen: It’d be really nice too to have more beer events that have a sense of purpose, as opposed to being just about the beverage too. Are things starting to start again in America, will there be craft beer festivals happening this summer?
Chalonda: Things are slowly starting to kick off. The Mayor here in Chicago has just announced that there will be some type of fest, but you’ll need to show that you’ve been vaccinated to attend. There’s Barrel & Flow which is the rebranded Fresh Fest.
I went to Fresh Fest in 2019, which was amazing, you know, it was like family. And here's the thing, it wasn't just brewers and breweries, it was diverse, it was a platform where we could be celebrated. The energy was just amazing. I would love to go this year and I'm still on the fence because I’m not about the crowds just yet. So I need to figure out what I'm going to actually do, because that's coming up in September. The energy was so high in 2019. And I hope that it can be recaptured.
Helen: I hope so too. There are discussions happening here at the moment about what will and won’t happen. There have been a few beer and cider festivals happening virtually which has been amazing from an accessibility point of view.
Helen: What are your favourite beer styles?
Chalonda: Well, we know porters are not my favourite…
Helen: Yes, I loved your description of just ‘brown water’ it’s so funny
Chalonda: I like a stout. Porters hurt my feelings. When I get a stout, and it tastes like a porter it's just so annoying. Some people say there isn’t a difference but there is, in heaviness and taste and mouthfeel. To me a porter tastes like a brown ale, it’s just flat, thin and lets just go with that. My favorite styles are double IPAs or even a triple. Lagunitas have a triple IPA called Waldo which is really really good. It’s just crazy how many different types there are in the market now too. You try to support other breweries in different states but it’s hard when in your city alone when your city has so much to offer in a 10-mile radius.
Helen: I’ve read somewhere that you’re into making beer cocktails too right? And you try not to drain pour things? Which I’m really into, I’ve been trying to do more of this at home.
Chalonda: I will drain pour but it has to be the absolute last resort, like if I’m at the point where I’ve made a beer cocktail and it still hasn’t fixed it then it’s going down the drain.
Helen: Sometimes life is too short! You have a bourbon podcast with your husband too, right? Is that something you have always been interested in?
Chalonda: You know what I blamed my husband for all my drinking… he's in the back room and I'm sure he can hear what I'm saying. I wasn't really into whiskey, like I didn't really like the taste of it. But then as I started drinking more and more barrel aged stouts, it was like a gateway. When COVID started last year well… *Chalonda points to a shelving unit of bottles* … yeah, blame COVID for that! And that's just my bar we are looking at here, me and my husband have separate bars.
Helen: That is incredible. I really used to hate whisky, I never got into it but Sophie, my wife, has always been into it. Drinking things like barrel aged beers or malt forward beer gives you this snippet of a flavour profile through something else. It just made whisky way more accessible and I found that, whereas before I could just taste alcohol, now I’m able to pick apart differences. I’m sure this is annoying for Sophie because she used to be the only person in the house who drank whisky and I’m now drinking from the shelf.
What do you have coming up for the rest of 2021?
Chalonda: You know what, to be honest with you, now with everything that has happened I don't plan so far out now. Because anything, and everything can happen. There are some things that I am trying to work on. I had to take a break again, from the podcast, because I was studying for my real estate exam, so just more podcasting, and just more professional drinking.
Helen: What would you like to see from the beer industry over there kind of next few years?
Chalonda: I would like to see more Black owned breweries growing. I would like to see more collaborations with Black owned breweries, I would like to see the macro breweries, create grants or scholarships to get more people of color into the industry. I would like to see more diversity in this industry, in America we have like 8000 or so breweries, but only 0.1% of them are Black owned, so I’d like to definitely see a growth in that.
Helen: There’s an interesting discussion currently happening about beer education, and some people are super into the scholarship ideas, I am definitely into scholarships, I think that making education accessible is so important. There are others though who have talked about how maybe these education programs aren’t necessary for an entry point into the industry.
Chalonda: I mean for me, it's like, to each their own. I'm actually studying for my Certified Beer Server exam. Here we have a young lady named Eugenia Brown, she goes by Black Beer Chick, she created The Road to 100 initiative – and I know she's gonna kill me, because I should have been taking this exam, but I’ve just been focusing on another exam. I'm studying, I promise, I'm studying for it! I think it's actually an excellent tool, you know, and you're going to get critics. Just like with anything in life, you have people claiming that you don't need college degrees, for me it's to each their own. If a person feels that this is the path they want to take, they should definitely pursue it
Helen: How are you finding studying for the Certified Beer Server exam?
Chalonda: You know, I found it very interesting, because for me now, people might be like “oh, well, ABC you don't even brew beer”. For me, it's about knowledge. It's about taking that time to learn about this industry that I have such an opinion on. I just want to just kind of elevate as much as possible. I'm reading Tasting Beer by Randy Mosher and it has been a wonderful guide.
Helen: I just sat my written exam for Certified and I found the books on the syllabus a mixture of dry or just so helpful. The book on food and beer pairing by Garrett Oliver is so good.
I think that for me personally, I wanted to do my education because I’m already on the back foot, yknow. If I can pass these exams then it proves to at least myself that I know I deserve to be in this industry, but that might just be a me thing. I love seeing all of these scholarships because education is so expensive. We would love to do scholarships in the future for people to study Cicerone or WSET or Pommelier. We shall see.
Have you done any collaborative brews or anything as ABC? Or is that something you would like to do?
Chalonda: Actually, not yet. So pre-COVID I was actually going to do a collab beer with Second Shift down in St. Louis, that was going to be a collab beer for Fresh Fest 2020, so we put that on hold. There are some things that I'm actually working on in the back end, I'm not gonna talk about it just yet because you know how everything has to fall in place, but there are definitely some things in the works.
Helen: Where are your favourite places to eat and drink where you’re living right now?
Chalonda: Oh my god, you ain't just asking about breweries? That's like asking me which is my favourite kid? Some of my go-tos are Half Acre, Maplewood… we now have a new location of Ravinia open up in Avondale, which is a few neighborhoods over but I haven't been to that location yet. My husband has and he says it’s pretty dope. Hop Butcher is buying one of Half Acres old locations, so they're going to move from the burbs to the city. Hop Butcher is one of my favorite Chicago breweries. There are so many, because at each one you get something different.
