Behind the Bar with Adam Wells
In January I sat down with wine professional and cider writer Adam Wells. Adam has been writing the Cider Saturday column on Malt Review every week for the past 2 and a half years.
Sadly at the end of January, Malt announced that they would no longer be publishing work and their contributors would be going their seperate ways. The loss of Cider Saturday is a big one for the cider community, however we are really excited to see what Adam does next.
During his interview we talked about career paths, the controversial 750ml bottle and what we’d like to see from cider in 2021.
How did you get into the drinks industry?
Adam: If you had told me when I started at University, doing an English degree, that I'd be coming out of it, and ultimately looking for a job in the wine industry, I wouldn’t have believed you. Before I went to University, my parents might have drunk wine with a meal at the weekend but it really wasn’t a big thing, and I didn't like it, I wasn't really interested. And when I went to university, I bought wine based on what was discounted in supermarkets or I could buy for less than three pounds from the Student Union. Then, probably on the Christmas Eve of my second year, we went round for drinks at one of my best friend’s houses across the road from us. His father was serving these wines, they weren't anything particularly expensive, but I just remember being given a glass of this red, this Rioja Reserva, and tasting it and thinking, God that is so different to anything I've ever tried in my life.
It had these aromas and flavors that I had just never come across on a drink before. I asked him, what is this? Why does it taste like this? And I knew nothing. I'd probably have guessed that Rioja was a grape, I didn't know it’s this particular region in Spain that made wine, in a particular style, with particular grapes. But my friend's father was a massive wine enthusiast so he was able to answer my questions. That started me looking for other stuff that would smell and taste like that, but you know, on a student budget. Then I watched the film Sideways, and decided that I definitely needed to like Pinot Noir, and that it was very important I did.
I left University and thought, I've got an English degree. What do you do with that? I didn't really have a fixed path. Then my friend mentioned somebody he'd met who was a wine buyer, and that just sounded like an absolutely wild job, I didn't even realise it was a thing. A few months later, I noticed that Majestic were advertising and so I applied, and I didn't get it. Then another job with Majestic came up in Inverness, I got that and I went to work in Scotland, selling wine. I was lucky because Majestic put everyone through the WSET Level 3, straight away. Which was kind of terrifying because I barely knew anything really, and six months later, I'm taking this exam that they've given me a textbook for and then had all sorts of technical detail, which I'm terrible at, because I'm not at all scientific.
I’ve since moved to a couple of different companies and I've been at my current job for the last five years. But when I went to Inverness, I was in a really good position to visit all these distilleries. Whisky was something I had grown up with - single malt was my dad’s drink, Scotland was where we went on holiday, it was something I’d always been really interested in. And six years ago, when I was feeling particularly kind of low and restless, I was encouraged to start a whisky blog by my girlfriend at the time. So I did. And it's visually terrible and it's lost somewhere in the bowels of the internet. But for whatever reason, it caught the eye of a chap called Mark Newton who was the editor of and at that time sole contributor to a site called Malt, and a few months later, he contacted me and said “I'm joining forces with this other blog, we're gonna try to bring some writers in and do daily content, would you be interested?” And I was a huge, huge fan of his. I just read everything that he wrote - I still do. And so I was thrilled to be asked, and I've happily written for Malt now, for around three and a half years.
Helen: When you first started at Malt you were writing about whisky?
Adam: Yes and I didn't give a thought to writing about anything else. But writing about whisky is very different to writing about cider. Aside from the drink itself, it's a completely different industry at a completely different stage. And increasingly, as I wrote about whisky, I found myself struggling with frustration, and ultimately, anger at what I saw as several glaring flaws within the industry. And I became increasingly despondent about what I saw as an increasingly cynical industry, in the sense that most large scotch distilleries are owned by these enormous conglomerates and a large number of them, in my eyes, had, over time, compromised on ingredients or production methods in the name of efficiency but at the expense of flavour. And were increasing prices in the process. Then on the other hand, you have a lot of smaller, more interesting distilleries, and who are looking at it from a purely qualitative viewpoint. So they are discussing all of the little things that elevate the quality of their spirit. I became frustrated by quite a lot of the secrecy in big whisky, I saw transparency as a big issue. And when you had these interesting craft distilleries, who were prepared to show their working, I was frustrated when that was questioned or belittled by other sectors of the community. It’s also generally very expensive and getting more so - it’s no longer the accessible hobby that it still was when I first fell in love around 2006-2007.
There were all these various difficulties with which I was becoming increasingly disillusioned and that was reflected in my writing. My writing became angrier, and scornful at times, and looking back, I should have gone about some of it in a completely different way. It wasn’t the right way to engage with that particular topic. I have since apologised and I’d certainly maintain that I made mistakes. But concurrent with that, I had gone down the rabbit hole of cider. And what I found was this inverse world where amazing stuff was being made in an incredibly passionate and sensitive way, which wasn't getting the credit or the spotlight which its quality deserved. Increasingly I thought to myself, why am I writing about something that, to my mind, contains a large degree of cynicism and exclusivity, when I could be writing about this incredible, tucked away hidden little world full of remarkable people making remarkable and ridiculously affordable drinks that aren't being spoken about as much as they deserve?
I said to my editors, I'm really sorry, I'm not gonna be able to write about whisky as much, if at all, anymore - I want to write about cider. And they were incredibly supportive of that. So I went away to try and form my own site, I got the domain name and then remembered that I'm terrible at design and the world's worst digital native. So it went nowhere. And then we did this week of “anything but whisky” on Malt, and obviously my contribution was about cider. My editors came back and said “do you want to just build a cider column out of our website?” And it felt a bit weird writing regularly about cider on a whisky website, but it had seemed that the people in the cider community had been accepting of it, and a lot of our whisky readers were prepared to take a chance on reading about something new. And so I said yes, and I'm still writing about cider a year later.
Helen: So how did you get into cider?
Adam: I didn't have a Damascus moment like I did with wine but I do remember the very first time I had it. It was at a Leavers Ball of another school that had, for whatever reason, decided they needed to up their numbers by asking other schools whether anyone wanted to come along. My only concern when we got there was that I'd been to the pub a couple of times at that age, enough to know that I just couldn't get on with beer. So I was standing by the bar really worrying about either drinking something that I hated, or making what I thought would be, another sort of social self-ostracising statement by drinking Diet Coke at a party. Then my best friend ordered a Strongbow I said “yes, I'll have one of those”, because I tended to copy whatever he did and I thought okay I'll muscle through it. But I had no clue what this was - didn’t know it wasn’t beer, didn’t know about cider. And I was given it and I thought ‘okay, I can manage this’.
Then one day a few years after, I was in a cafe in Hereford and somebody had left his book on a table so I thought I'd flick through it. I can't remember the name of it but if I was guessing, I'd say it was probably Andrew Lea's Craft Cider Making. And I was reading it and thinking ‘loads of this is really familiar. This is kind of like what I've been reading about with wine’. And then I found out about ciders made through the champagne method, and I thought that was absolutely wild.
So that was probably a little bit before I started writing for Malt, but it was certainly when my general drinks enthusiasm was kind of at its highest. And I visited Burrow Hill a couple of years later, and was completely inspired by that, went home, and that afternoon wrote what’s still one of my favourite Malt articles I’ve ever done. It was only meant to be a one-off, but I thought, well, I better go and have some actual conversations with some people who know their stuff. I'd tried some Ross Ciders so I thought I'll book a tour there. I emailed and said “I'm afraid there's only one of me, but can I pay for a tour?” I got an email back from a chap called Albert Johnson saying yes. And I thought I knew the score from when I’ve toured whisky distilleries: I'd turn up, it'd be a big group and I'd normally trail around at the back with my notebook.
So I turn up and go to this pub, The Yew Tree. I got an email from Albert saying he'd meet me downstairs. I was kind of shocked that it was somebody who was my age, or a couple years younger than me. And I was still thinking ‘where's everyone else?’. He spent the next three and a half hours or so leading me around the orchard, around the barrel rooms and tasting through all these ciders. And I was just thinking, this is absolutely wild. You just wouldn't email a distillery or most wineries that I was aware of at the time where the actual maker would say “yeah, come over, we'll taste everything, and we'll answer all of your questions”. And it was offered to me, despite my not being anything or anyone in cider. I wasn't a writer, I wasn't anyone, you know, this was an experience that would have been given to anyone who emailed. And so at that point I was totally energised.
Helen: It’s really amazing to hear because me and Rachel Hendry did the same thing. We already knew of Albert through our friend Ben so I guess I had assumed that was why he was so hospitable. Every time I speak to someone in cider though, I feel like so many of us share this story, there’s something really almost magical about this shared experience. Going into a world that Albert and Mike were kind enough to invite us into, and all you have to do is ask.
Adam: It’s astonishing the number of cider makers and others around cider who are just such large hearted, generous people. Who will show you around. I think I was very lucky though, to land on Ross because it’s an incredibly special place, run by incredibly special people, and they have really strong beliefs in what cider is to them. They are so patient in explaining it, and understanding of where other people are coming to it from. I don't think anyone would ever go to Broome Farm and feel embarrassed by how little they know about cider.
Helen: It’s such a wonderful thing. I also feel like, even over the past 12 months there’s been this tremendous amount of momentum. I hope that it can keep going. Who do you feel like are some of the important voices in cider at the moment
Adam: One of the few wonderful things about last year was the exponentially increased level in volume of the positive cider conversation. At the start of the year, there was no Burum Collective, there was no Neutral Cider Hotel. James Finch hadn't done as much on Fine Cider Friday, hadn’t done his “meet the maker” series on Instagram. Full Juice and Graftwood were both in their infancy. And I think there was rather less general conversation about what I would describe as “aspirational cider” on social media. We now have all of these voices that I think are not only strong in and of themselves, but are remarkably encouraging of other voices that are new to the fold.
It's something that has been amazing to see in cider, that when somebody new has arrived and said, “I've got something to say” they have been immediately championed and welcomed by even the longest standing voices. I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that two of the most prominent voices are Dick Withecombe and Cath Potter. They are just so vocal, not only in the advocacy they do themselves, but in promoting the advocacy that everyone else does. They are important in the way that they raise people up. There are also certain people in the long standing cider community who have done incredible work such as Gabe Cook and Susanna Forbes, who are incredible advocates for cider and also incredibly supportive. My cider journey wouldn't have been anything like what it was without reading books by Pete Brown and Bill Bradshaw and James Crowden. The Cider Chat podcast, that's over 250 episodes now, which is just incredible. Malus Magazine, and Pellicle Magazine too. I think that James Finch deserves as much praise as he could be given because he was writing, blogging and making videos about fine cider and asking questions about things like transparency long before I was, in fact long before anyone really. I sometimes think that he deserves more credit, I think without him cider communication online and in blogs wouldn't be where it is today. And then of course, Andrew Lea, who’s craft cider royalty. I was absolutely amazed when he agreed to chat to me on Malt, neither of whom he’d obviously ever heard of. And what was really striking was the number of cider makers who responded to that article saying “if it wasn't for Andrew Lea, I wouldn't be making cider now”.
Barny and Andy at Sandford Orchards write incredible pieces. Everything that Ryan writes for Caledonian Cider is a must read. Eleanor from Eden Ciders does Cidernomics, and although that's not posting regularly anymore, I am in awe of her, she is one of the wisest and most visionary people in cider, and I would love to hear her voice more. Then there are all of the people who are really positively active in other channels. I'm a rubbish millennial, I can't do Instagram but you look at people like Martyn running cidershit, and Tas Fraser with Girl with a Cider Review, and by the looks of it the dozens of active cider reviewers in America and Canada. Tom Oliver rightly says that we need more really good makers but we also need more people asking questions, shining a light on those makers and the many areas of cider that are still not covered in the depth they deserve. Just increasing our understanding and advocacy of the category. I kind of think whenever someone writes something that is accurate, considered, and increases the general understanding of sensitively-made aspirational cider, in a way that keeps it inclusive to any drinker, then they are an important voice in the cider community. You know, strong opinions and differences of opinion are obviously fine, when they're argued in a constructive way. But fundamentally we just can't afford to gatekeep when it comes to cider advocacy at the moment. It's such a fledgling industry, it desperately needs cohesiveness and unity.
Helen: It’s the problem within every industry. I suppose there will always be odd divisions happening... but I think that currently, cider is at a very crucial stage. I don't think it does well to kind of belittle the different ways that cider can be made, whether it’s because you don't want to drink that style of cider, or you just don’t like it. I think that’s fine, no one is going to make you drink something you don’t want to, but I would consider the importance in celebrating the diversity of cider. Everyone has a view on what they think cider is, and I think the magic of cider is actually what it could be if you just let it.
I would like to see less negativity from the drinks industry in general. It’s different with beer and wine, there isn’t a worry that it’s going to affect the drinks popularity. Look at basic examples like hard seltzer, loads of people in beer were vehement that hard seltzer shouldn’t and wouldn’t take off. Now we can’t move for seltzer, but has it stopped craft beer from being a successful industry or stopped the production of lambics for example? No of course it hasn't. The fear that I have with cider is, as I said it's at a very crucial stage and we all need to push forward together, so to have people on the inside pushing back is really unhelpful.
Adam: I think a lot of it comes from the not unreasonable contention that cider has an identity crisis. This is stuff that comes up whenever anyone is advocating cider to a new audience. Within about five minutes, they'll have mentioned the “ciders can be made with only 35% juice” rule and will say that we've got all these big brands and their juice content is really low. Which is true. Alongside that you have a lot of people who are big, big corporations who are basically using cider as a loophole to get away from paying alcopop duty. And then you have these particularly long-standing traditionalists making full apple juice cider, who are very passionate but intense about anything that isn't pretty much full juice. I think, because of the wave of increasingly industrial, occasionally cynical, and massive brand ciders that are in the market, some of those traditionalists feel increasingly that they need to fight a particular tide.
To a point, I can sympathise but what I've come to realise, is that people will not get into interestingly-made aspirational cider because you are rallying against big cider. People will get interested because you put a glass of the good stuff in front of them, and say, try this, this is absolutely amazing. That's what will bring people to the table, is sharing that world with them. Big cider isn't going away, fruit cider isn't going away. That's also not the market that aspirational cider should be going after; our energy should be in championing that which is good, and explaining why it's good, and demystifying this world and opening it up to as many people as possible.
Helen: I think that there's something to be gained from everything, I mean Pilton, Little Pomona and other brilliant makers blend their cider with other fruits as well as apples, which I think is really cool. And really interesting. It’s a relatively bold move to make in a world where your comparison is something that is mass produced and has hardly looked at the fruit it claims to be made from. I think there needs to be less derision around stuff like that. You can make amazing drinks out of fruit that aren’t apples. Why are there folk who think that apples and pears are acceptable but not others?
I would also personally like to see more of the varieties on labels. I like to know what I’m drinking and understanding the different apples that have made up a blend, knowing which apples produce which aromas and flavours. I mean that's how I ended up being interested in cider, because I was into tasting beer, and then Albert sat down with me and explained single varieties and blending. Now here we are, having that groundwork was just so useful. And, I'm excited for the Manchester Cider Club that is coming up, presented by Albert of Ross Cider and Ben of Cider Voice, because I think that that is going to really highlight that exact practise and why it is so important.
Adam: And this is where it's a tremendous benefit to come to cider with a perspective of another drink, you know, whether it be beer, or wine, because I wouldn't ask 90% of the questions I asked about cider if I didn't have wine as a template. And cider is not wine but many of the processes that take it from fruit to drink are broadly the same. So you kind of come armed with this blueprint that I think is really what cider needs. So for instance if you ask “what are the top five orchards in Herefordshire?” the answer is “We don't know”. Whereas you look at wine and every vineyard is mapped to within an inch of its life and studied and scrutinised. There is so much still to learn that has the potential to get people excited. And what keeps me engaged is trying to ask those questions.
Helen: Yes you’re right, if I had gone to Ross Cider before working in coffee and then beer, I wouldn't have thought to ask any of the questions that I did. What would you like to see from the cider industry moving forward?
Adam: I personally would love international ciders to have broader availability in the UK. I think that a part of the “rising tide that carries all ships” is an awareness of the breadth of cider cultures, cider makers and different bottled ciders that exist around the world. There is something incredibly eye-opening about thinking that you know cider really well, because you've tasted your way through a swathe of UK ciders and then going into a cidery in Astigarraga, near San Sebastian, and just having these huge chestnut barrels of Spanish cider, that are like nothing you've ever tasted before. Or going to some of the farmhouses in France, trying some of their ciders that you might recognise as being keeved, but which are made with different apples or different pears. They have these incredible different flavours and they've been made there for as long as cider has been made in the UK. There's also something incredibly inspiring about seeing this broiling energy that is going on in the US and Australian cider making communities, which I just wish we had access to. Levels of passion, energy, expertise and creative freedom that comes from being unencumbered by tradition, and they are producing amazing things. I just think the more good ciders you have on shelves, the more shared expertise there is, the better it is for makers and consumers.
I also think that of course groups like Cider Women, for example and Pomme Boots are very good at being inclusive from a gender perspective. Obviously however as we have seen quite recently, through the #noapplelogies movement, there's still a degree of misogyny in the industry. That's something that needs to be addressed. I think that the strength that cider has is that there are a lot of inspirational people who have very much set themselves to doing just that, and doing that quite prominently. Which is encouraging. I think, as with all drinks, there are issues of inclusivity and diversity that need to be worked on. And these are things that I am just learning myself through Twitter and your work at Burum.
When I was just on whisky Twitter, I didn’t see how prominent the discussion of issues pertaining to diversity and inclusivity in drinks were. There would sometimes be discussion about how whisky is and remains very elitist, and for old white men. Broader issues of diversity weren't things that I often saw coming up and it's been mind altering, and affecting to see the discussions being had on beer Twitter, which I've only really noticed because it's often connected to cider. Seeing these discussions and people creating these forums that are specifically designed to highlight these massively overlooked communities, in order to create a safer place in the beer world. That is something that particularly last year I realised I just have not considered nearly enough throughout my life, as a person in an incredibly privileged position, as a middle class, straight white man.
I suppose, when I see things like what you're doing on Burum, and what is being done by Cloudwater, for their Wayfinder project, that has given me an enormous amount of pause for thought. It is an issue with cider as it is within every drink, within every industry. It’s not one that I have any idea whatsoever of how to help tackle, except to salute and support the work that forums like Burum are doing, and ask questions of, what should we read? What should we do? How can we be better?
Helen: I think the really interesting thing about cider, and I have seen this said a few times now by people, where they say “well there is no racism in cider”. Honestly, and perhaps I am cynical but I am fairly certain this is because cider just hasn’t got there yet. There is hardly any racial diversity within cider in the UK. You can’t look around a room of white people and say “there’s no racism here” because you don’t actually know that until people of ethnic minority walk through the door.
I think that one of the main problems with diversity in cider right now - and this is just a theory I have after looking at some statistics and what I know of the industry - but craft cider is made predominantly in the countryside, that then gets distributed to pubs in the countryside. The countryside is inherently white right? Just looking at the census results from 2011 specifically in cider making regions: in Herefordshire 98.2% of the population were white, Gloucestershire was 95%, Worcestershire was 96% and Buckinghamshire 66%. So I mean, what chances are there of you being involved inside of making cider if you aren't white, don’t own land or even necessarily have access to it. There is also an element of privilege needed to live in the countryside, from the lack of travel links to higher prices of property.
I think that if we focus on bringing cider out of the countryside, not taking, but also making it available in cities, like what Dick and Cath have done with bringing cider to Manchester, and what Hawkes have done with getting folk to talk about the possibilities of urban cider, you’ll make fine and low intervention cider far more accessible. Not to mention the fact that the cider makers themselves will have more success with their product as there are many folk who live in cities who would cherish this sort of cider if it was accessible. Gatekeeping, intentional or not in the end has huge drawbacks.
Adam: This part of the cider industry that we're talking about too is very small.
Helen: And as with all things, the moment you start to talk about diversity, inclusion and equity, is also when you will encounter the problems, there's actually more danger with being visible because there's more chance for people to give you shit basically. That's almost another hurdle that we'll get to. In advance of that however it would be amazing if cideries already started making it clear that their cider is for everyone. Do that work now, get those support systems in place. Just not doing anything isn't good enough anymore. Just not being racist or not being homophobic doesn't work and I think cider has the opportunity to kind of get ahead of that.
Adam: And I am completely guilty of inaction and I think that 2020 really brought that home to me. And I think a huge part of what makes Burum particularly important to cider is that, through experiences with other drinks, you or others are able to bring your powerful voice on these kinds of utterly critical issues early in aspirational cider’s development. Which gives cider a better chance to make the community a place where anyone would want to stay once they found it. I think this is why so many people have been inspired by Burum.
Helen: I mean the goal will always be to try and help and as long as we are doing something that is helpful then that is the most important thing. I have just got one more question, which is a big one but if you had to highlight some cider makers who would you choose?
Adam: I’ll stick to the UK or this will get completely out of hand! Sometimes you see people complaining about the same names cropping up, and possibly they do but this is usually because A) they make phenomenal cider and B) many of them go out of their way to engage with drinkers and make themselves available to writers. So they deserve to crop up, and quite right too. Ross on Wye Cider and Perry, Little Pomona, Olivers, Find and Foster, Pilton, Gregg’s Pit. Phenomenal cideries that deserve every mention they get. But then there are so many incredible cideries that people just don't know about. I am a huge fan of Cwm Maddoc, who are about 15 minutes away from Ross, and what they make is just wonderful. They're big on rare varieties and I've just never had a bad cider from them. They've only just appeared for commercial sale online and I'm so pleased to see them in Cat in the Glass and Fram Ferment. Smith Hayne in Devon, they're just wonderful, William and Anna are making these just world class keeved and Champagne method vintage ciders from the Smith Hayne Orchard. Bartestree and Artistraw in Herefordshire are outstanding, Burrow Hill and Barley Wood Orchards in Somerset are two of the best anywhere. Nightingale in Kent.
I was thrilled to see how well Caledonian did last year. Ryan is making cider in a completely non traditional area, he's up in Inverness making great cider but he is also really engaged online. He engages in discussions and you can ask him questions. He is very open in talking to his drinkers, which is something every cidery needs to do in 2021, especially under current circumstances, you can’t expect others to come to you, which is unfortunate but it is a difficult time. I know not everyone finds it natural, but you have to find ways to talk to your customers. I also love Brennan's; they're the nicest, nicest guys in the world. They're near where I grew up on Merseyside - half an hour away, and are another cidery who have just become commercially available.
I suppose I also love following cider makers who make cider in less traditional areas of the country but you know, aren't feeling constrained by that. So you've got Steilhead in Scotland who make just incredible ciders and Charnwood from Leicestershire, who are grafting wood from Ross on Wye trees and growing all these Herefordshire and Somerset varieties in a Leicester orchard, which I think is really cool. My local cidery Pang Valley is one of my favourites and I'd love to see them be more widely drunk. Chapel Sider, which is James Finch’s cidery, hasn’t launched yet, but I can’t wait for it to do so, because what he’s making is gorgeous.
The cidery that interests me and could be a real game changer if it wanted to be is The Newt in Somerset. So many of the best cideries are tiny affairs, labours of love because it’s expensive to set up which means people are often doing it as a secondary to their main job. Or it’s been built up over a couple of generations. But The Newt was built by people with enormous amounts of money, and they could have tapped into the English Sparkling Wine industry but instead they've gone and built a cidery. They have this equipment that other cideries in the country could only dream of, there's no cider maker who wouldn't like to work with their utilities, and I suppose, because of that, I almost kind of hold them to a higher standard in my head. You know, I'm waiting for them to release stuff that's exceptional. What they make is very, very good but I think they are still finding their way with some of the marketing and they are also a very young cidery. I think that with their equipment and financial backing, they have effectively built the kind of spaceship of real aspirational cideries. And you don't want to see them just use that spaceship to make cross channel flights, you want their ciders to just be the best things ever made. So I'm really, really interested to follow what they do.
Helen: I feel like every year cider makers are doing something different, they are changing all the time. That's actually what's quite exciting about cider in that way. A lot of traditional wineries - and this is me making very broad sweeping statements - they don't make such drastic changes. I feel like if you put up even just like the selection of everything in cider that was made last year, and from labels alone, it just looks completely different.
Adam: Plus, the information, the communications, are there now, you know, cider is not something that is impossible to find out about online anymore. And as far as packaging is concerned we're the only traditional cider making nation where the 750ml bottle is not the norm. The more cideries that embrace that packaging, and encourage people to put it out on the table, to enjoy and share at home with a meal over an evening, the less that bottle becomes viewed as just some sort of highfalutin stamp of perceived elitism, which it should never have been seen as in the first place. It's just a larger bottle. It's not, you know, they're not putting it in a crystal decanter. I find the negative attitude that says “stop overdressing your ciders” completely incomprehensible.
Helen: I like a 750ml bottle because it makes more sense for sharing, I think there is something really communal about the 750 bottles. You can get absolutely terrible wine that predominantly comes in 750ml, it doesn't mean anything. I think, maybe it’s about just re-positioning your brain a little bit.
Adam: Cider is in a wonderful position where it’s proving that it can straddle both sides on the fence. Which, when you look at the Pomonas, the books, the crystal glasses at Hereford’s Cider Museum, you see that for almost all of its history besides the last 150 years, you see that it always has. It's never going to stop being a drink that you can have at the pub with a bunch of people where you can drink it as part of a community in that way. What it's showing now, with a still tiny portion of its market, is that it can also be this aspirational, interestingly made, higher end drink that is not wine, that has its own identity, that has its own flavours, that has its own history, baggage, problems and brilliance, but that can be treated with the same respect as wine because that is what it deserves.
