Behind the Bar with Tas Fraser
This October I was privileged enough to get to interview Canadian cider blogger Tas of Girl with a Cider Review over Zoom. After writing the first three of my cider articles with a very British voice and perspective it felt important to start engaging with cider culture beyond these shores.
Britain will always be an extremely important place in the history and future of cider but Tas helped me to see that we are merely part of a network of cider cultures across the globe each with their own merits, challenges and traditions.
The world of cider has always been full of warm-hearted people but Tas might be one of the warmest, humblest, most altruistic in the industry.
Who are you, what do you do and how did you get into cider?
Tas: So my name is Tas. I am a cider reviewer from Ontario, Canada. I’m in Mississauga, about 30 minutes from our big city Toronto. I run my Instagram under Girl with a Cider Review - I’m on Facebook as well, but Instagram’s the main platform that I use, because it's just more user friendly for photos and videos and things like that; and because I always do my cider reviews with pictures. The video part is also a big component for myself.
I started in 2018. So it'll be almost three years in February 2021, that I've been doing this. I really liked ciders: it was the first drink that I would have and then continued to have at other occasions. I've never been a big beer person - it's just not my thing. I started out with super sweet drinks, that's why cider was the go to besides like coolers, which I also didn't like.
So I started, trying a bunch of different ones. It was a relatively small scene here in Canada, or before 2018 there weren't too many that you could have but it’s grown a lot so there are a lot of different flavours now. One day, I was sitting talking to my sister and she's like, “Oh you really like ciders? You should be girl with a cider review,” as a joke.
And I was like, “Oh, yeah, I guess maybe I could,” and then I just created the Instagram that day.
It's progressed a lot ever since. And it's turned from kind of like a joke-type thing into something that I consider one of my hobbies, kind of like a business now, that involves a lot of time and effort - more than I expected to put in.
It’s something I'm really passionate about and it's something that's continuing to grow. So I'm excited about that. And it's progressed into other things: I run a weekly live chat on Instagram now, I think tonight will be my 11th episode of that.
And that's been going really well I get to talk to other cider reviewers or cider makers and learn a lot about other people.
Ben: Is that the Cider and Life videos? What was the motivation behind that? What was the first one that you did?
Tas: The first one I did was with Texas Cider Girl who is a reviewer out of Texas. It wasn't like a specific person for a specific reason, I was thinking, how can I reach out to other people? How can I network? How can I learn more? How can I grow my skills by connecting with other people and be able to showcase them as well, because I think that a really big part in a person's success is helping other people succeed, as well. I want to be able to promote others and share their stories, because everyone has a story. That was kind of what I wanted to get across with that, and it's great to talk about cider and other stuff, I wanted it to be kind of about both. Just because I know there's another side to the people behind cider and cider-making and cider reviewing. So I want to be able to do something unique, and have some fun with that, too.
Ben: Which was your favourite?
Tas: Oh, man. I love them all for different reasons. But there were a couple that I did. I think my fourth episode I did with a couple from Chicago - Butches Love Cider. They make cocktails. So we did cocktail making together. And then Three Guys And Cider from New Jersey. I've had them on a couple times as well. They're so much fun. So we played some drinking games together and just chatted, it was really nice.
Ben: So I guess one of the things that we've written about with cider, because I feel in the UK, cider is quite misunderstood and it has this very rigid attitude where people think it's something that you know kids drink, like you were saying about how it was the first thing you started drinking, it was the same for me too. I work in craft beer now and I drink lots of different things, but for a good five years all I drank was sweet cider. We have a really lovely traditional cider scene in the UK, which is something that is a massive privilege for us to have, with lots of old orchards.
One of my close friends runs a cidery and they have huge orchards and they make loads of amazing dry, barrel-aged ciders, which is how I got into real cider. It was working on his dad's farm in the summer between University, basically just getting drunk, building stuff and making cider. But one of the things that we talked about is this idea of image, so I guess the question to start with would be what does cider mean to you - what is it? And would it be different to what I described, the UK scene as being like?
Tas: Yeah, I would say it's a little different. I have been out to the UK as well. During the time that I went, I did find a couple ciders, but I wasn't there specifically for cider. The ciders that I've tried are definitely traditional. There are a lot of barrel-y, super dry ciders which are not exactly my thing - I'll try everything at least once, but they’re not exactly my favourite. I started off with pretty sweet stuff but I definitely can't even handle that anymore. So I’m somewhere in the middle now.
In my province, Ontario, we have a lot of apples and we produce quite a lot of apples compared to other provinces in Canada. So Ontario, British Columbia and I think out east, our eastern provinces as well they have a lot of apple history.
Some of the first ciders I saw here were not craft ciders. They were just the commercial ones like Strongbow, but it wasn’t anything like what we've got now, because like I said, our scene has expanded a lot. So we do have traditional apple ciders, some are similar to ones that I’ve tried in the UK. But the amount of flavours that they are putting into the ciders now has expanded a lot.
Ben: In terms of other fruits and things like that?
Tas: Yeah, other fruits because I mean, I remember when I went to our liquor stores it was originally just mostly apple stuff, you would see some flavoured things. But they were just pure sugar with berry flavouring or something, they called it a cider. But now they're actually putting a lot more time and effort and getting more creative twists on their traditional cider.
Ben: So it’s real fruit that goes in not flavourings and stuff?
Tas: Exactly. And I know immediately now when it's flavouring compared to actual real fruits. At first I was like, “Oh, this is good,” but as you try everything you're like “No, I guess it's not like real cider.” I don't think perries are too big here, for example, I have the cider beside me right now, “Pear Cider,” it's a pear-flavoured cider.
So it's not a perry for example, it’s flavouring in the apple cider. People confuse the two because the perries are fermented with the yeast of the pear skins, so there's a lot of things that can trick you now.
If you're into craft cider, and knowing about actual cider, it's good to look into ingredients and how they're making the cider.
Ben: So to follow on from what you were saying about the scene in I guess Canada, but also like North America, I feel like they're going to be relatively similar, right? But what would you kind of characterise as, maybe, the style, or the kind of distinctive features that would discern a North American cider from something from Britain or from Normandy or the Basque region in Spain?
Tas: Hmm. I think we've gotten a lot better here in terms of [not] adding things like additional sugars and things like that to our ciders. But I still think it's a big thing. And like I said, about so many dry ciders that I've tried in the UK, it doesn't seem as though they're adding all these additional things, they're sticking to the traditional type of cider making.
Between Canada and the United States there's a lot of differences. In the United States they have so many different flavours, probably any flavour you can think of, because they're adding all these different things. That happens just with foods in general in the United States, because their health regulations are different. We're not allowed to add certain things, due to health reasons, but they're able to add colorings, which makes it a little different too.
Ben: One of the reasons why in this country, you quite often don't find as much fruit and things like that in craft cider is because of duty. So when you add anything but apples, then the duty goes up. So if you're going to make fruit cider, you either need to make it cheap enough that you don't mind the duty increase - so things like Kopparberg or you have to make it very, very expensive. We get the polar opposite ends of the spectrum, whereas, I guess there's a little bit more freedom in North America to kind of add things. And I guess there's not as much adherence to the cultural tradition, right? It's not been a big thing historically, it's kind of come along in the last like, 30-40 years.
We've had something similar, like a bit of a resurgence, but there's a lot of people who still do the old way and they fight very hard to keep that and I think rightly so. But I do wonder to what extent innovation has been stifled because we're being quite narrow whereas you look at Canada or America or even New Zealand, Australia. And there just seems to be this craft beer attitude, just like “Well, let's just try everything and see what works.”
What do you think cider can be, as the lesser sibling of beer and wine that it is now?
Tas: It's definitely growing. I've seen it grow, even in the past two years, from when I started the Instagram - the amount of creativity that's coming out now and expanding across Canada as well. And being able to reach each other, even in the same country, because, you know, can't get things from either side of the country without shipping it out.
It's not a thing that a lot of people think of drinking, they're more big on wine, or they're more big on beer. And I’ve found in general it's hard to get people on to cider. It's not the most popular thing or it's seen as “super girly” for example. If that continues to be a stereotype, of course, it's cutting off a whole population of people that could be learning about and trying ciders. And yeah, I think ciders are interesting, and a lot of people don't know enough about them to know that they don't like it.
It's hard, because in Ontario, you have to have a certain amount of land, five acres or more or something like that, to be able to ship to people. Cideries in the city, in Toronto for example, they don't actually have their own property. They're just the cidery. They're not able to ship online to people, just because of our laws.
Tas: Have you had any crab apple ciders?
Ben: I think I had one recently but it hadn't finished conditioning in the bottle so it was a bit flat and had some residual sugar because the yeast should eat that sugar up and condition it. But we got gifted one that was from my friend Albert. He gave us a couple of bottles and one of them was a Hagloe Crab. So I'm quite interested to try to be honest because you don't get a lot of crab apple ciders in the UK. We have, I guess what you call “proper cider fruit?” Whereas I know that in North America, particularly in the US, there's quite a lot of crab apple ciders out there because they just provide a different flavour profile to dessert fruit, which is often very, kind of floral and tart and sweet. So I haven’t had much crab apple cider, what’s it like?
Tas: Oh, well, it's very, very tart, for sure. But, I like tart stuff. But it's a different kind... it's hard to describe, because it's a different kind of apple as well. They're usually dry and tart, because they’re quite sour on a normal day.
That's something that you can’t buy in our liquor stores, but if you go to the cideries themselves, a lot of them are trying it out, just to have it as a variety that people can try. I tried, I think one or two this summer, and they're cool. But not available to buy really, unless you go there.
Ben: I think something that would be actually super interesting to touch on, because you've mentioned a few times about liquor stores and the provincial system. For our UK audience, can you give us a quick rundown on how that kind of system works in Canada?
Tas: So it's different in every province, so our liquor stores, they're provincially run. Every province has a different one. So in Ontario, we have the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, it's called the LCBO so those are our liquor stores. Beside some grocery stores, which is now a thing, you can buy alcohol in grocery stores.
Ben: But when you were growing up you couldn’t buy alcohol in grocery stores and supermarkets?
Tas: No. That’s pretty new - within the last five years or so and it’s only expanded to specific ones. But in the United States, they've had that for a long time. So when you go there, you're like, oh, well, this is normal. So like I said, ours is called the LCBO in Ontario. So that's where you would buy alcohol in Ontario, depending on what city you're in. There's LCBO’s in different cities, that's where you would buy your alcohol strictly and they have control over who they're importing from. They can import from whatever cideries, if you want to order something within Ontario, for example, but you can't get individual ciders shipped. So if you're going to make an order to your LCBO for whatever it is you need, you have to buy a slab so it's kind of a little bit irritating. And in terms of getting it out of province from other ones, it's very hard to get certain companies that have been trying to get their ciders [into the LCBO] from the West Coast for example, in British Columbia, which is another big area for apple producing and ciders.
A lot of their companies, I know one specific that I've worked with in the past called Lone Tree, they're pretty big in British Columbia, they they only have been able to get one cider into our liquor store in the past couple years and just it's just their original one but they have so many good flavours.
It's just about our regulations, getting it in there, and there's so many people that want to get it in. And there's just a lot of cider. So it's hard to get them all in because of course in Ontario, we're trying to focus on Ontario-based ciders so it's easier to get those in the LCBO but usually it's just the most basic of flavours or maybe something that's seasonal. That I guess they can try to get in. And out of the country it's even harder to get stuff in. We have the classic things like Strongbow or Somersby or Magners, I have seen a couple times. And I think they had just the apple and I think they have a pear one that I've tried too.
It is because of our licencing system to send stuff over, you have to have a specific licence that is recognised in Canada. Even shipping across province, it's hard, because in Ontario, you have to have a certain amount of land, five acres or more or something like that, to be able to ship to people. Cideries in the city, in Toronto for example, they don't actually have their own property. They're just the cidery. They're not able to ship online to people, just because of our laws. And so those ones, most of the time, they're able to be accessed in the LCBO, because they don't have any other means of selling them to people.
Ben: So the LCBO, and I guess the other liquor boards, are essentially monopolies that are run by the provincial government, right? So I think that's very similar to Scandinavia, when I was in Sweden, all the booze shops are just owned by the government. So it's interesting, because we talked at the very start about the made wine duty and the duty in this country, and how that's an obstacle. You guys have your own obstacle in that you have to be really good mates with the Liquor Board.
Tas: Yeah. And it's upsetting sometimes. A lot of the companies have property and you can order it online. But in terms of getting them into a place that you can easily buy them, it's not easy at all.
Being able to speak one on one with someone or learn the history of a company, or just the experience that they gave you and the attention that they gave you. The effort that they put into being personable and running their business is something that's really important to me
Ben: So what have some of your favourite ciders of 2020 been?
Tas: That's a good question, I think about that often. It's the experience, not always the cider. That's a big thing about companies, creating moments for people that they remember over the cider, like maybe it was just a decent cider. But, good customer service, or being able to speak one on one with someone or learn the history of a company, or just the experience that they gave you and the attention that they gave you. The effort that they put into being personable and running their business is something that's really important to me when, you know, learning about cider. But this year... I'm trying to think because I have been able to go to some cideries, who still have their patios open, at least in the summer. So I've been trying my best to go to as many as possible. It's been upsetting really because I had so many plans to leave the country this year, and all of them got cancelled.
Ben: Where were you planning to go?
Tas: I want to go back to the UK again, and luckily, I didn't book any flights. I just had the pre-plans. I was hoping to go to the east coast of Canada as well. And there are a bunch of places that I wanted to go across the United States, but our borders are closed to them right now, and I think it'll be that way for a while. So you can't even drive over there. Yeah. So this summer it’s been a lot about exploring the area that I live, which has also been pretty nice.
To answer the question, I was looking through my Instagram to try to see if I could spark my own memory. There's a winery that produces a lot of ciders as well as wine, it’s Hounds of Erie Winery. They’re almost two hours away from where I live but it was a whole day trip to go out there. It was arranged in advance that I would check in with the owner when I got there, so it's him and his wife that own the company.
Their house is on the property and then they built a unit that they make the cider and wine in, and they have a little bar outside. When I got there, we were able to have a tour around the orchard and the vineyard. See the types of apples and grapes that they use for their wines and ciders.
We got a history and then we got to try all the ciders and I got to learn about them. They were so nice, they made the experience amazing and I couldn't forget it. And their ciders are also amazing too.
One of my one of my favourite flavours in cider, if it’s done right, is raspberry. They had a raspberry cider and it's my absolute favourite raspberry cider that I've ever had. But the experience I remember, because they made you feel like part of the family. So that was probably my highlight of the summer for sure. And I won't forget that.
Ben: That’s really lovely the way you described that. That feeling of, you know, people really care and they love this and they want you to care and love it as well, and they sound amazing.
Tas: Yes. And their raspberry cider is called Sassy Bitch, which is so funny. So, I think the story behind their labelling is, they had a dog and it ended up running across the street and it got hit by a car so they allow dogs to come to their cidery and all their labels have different dogs on it. The labelling, it's just adorable. I love it - the effort that goes into that.
Besides that, we're getting into the Fall season now, and one of the big flavours in the United States that they have had a lot of, is pumpkin ciders, but we've never had one before. This year it's a big trend to add pumpkin spice to cider. I've avoided it so far, I am interested but I'm trying to save it for later on - like Halloween and things like that. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I've tried spice ciders before and some of those have been my favourite this Fall but not pumpkin specifically so I'm not sure what that would be like.
Ben: So is that something that you look for, because obviously we talked before about the variety and the diversity of flavours available, is there an element of seasonality in the way that ciders are produced or certainly in the way that you choose to drink them?
Tas: I try to go by what's out. I don't have specific preferences for what I look for, I just try to try things that maybe we haven't had before. Especially what the trends are because I know in the UK a big flavour for ciders is blackcurrant. We haven't been getting too much of that in ciders but last year dark fruits was the thing for the winter. I was upset about it because that's one of my favourite flavours and I don't think it was done how I wanted, and I even reviewed a blackcurrant one recently - still not too happy about it - so I'm just hoping maybe next time. But my favourite flavours I think are definitely cranberry and raspberry and the tart flavours. Yeah, and cherry. So if those are done well those are my favourites.
