Behind the Bar with Ren Navarro
As someone who simply can’t let pride season end, over this month and the next I will be releasing a series of Behind the Bar conversations with people who are a part of the beer industry and the LGBTQIA+ community. It is important to me that we start to celebrate queer people for more than a week in the summer and that we continue to work hard and help our communities all year round.
Ren Navarro is based in Kitchener, Ontario and she runs Beer Diversity; a consulting and advocacy group that addresses diversity and inclusion within the world of drinks.
This conversation was one that I feel very lucky to have had, as Ren Navarro is to me, and I’m sure to plenty of other people, a beer icon.
We talked about her career, marriage and the lack of diversity within the beer, wine and spirits world. I hope you enjoy reading our conversation as much as I enjoyed having it.
What’s the beer scene like where you’re based?
Ren: When I started working in beer, which was about eight years ago, I think that they weren't playing around with it as much as they are now and you can see the evolution over the past 5 years and I think we are heavily influenced by the States, since we're so close. I always say that it goes: America, then Vancouver because they're right next to the States so they're very influenced by them and then kind of like the rest of us. By the time Vancouver's almost done with something we're like “Oh my god, West Coast IPA!”
I didn’t start working in beer until I was in my 30s. I went back to school to upgrade, I was going to get my Masters in English for some weird reason... probably because I come from a family of teachers. And so I was kind of like “maybe I should make my parents extra proud and teach” but it didn't happen; I got derailed by beer!
Helen: Have you gone down any of the beer education routes?
Ren: When I did my first beer job I was able to get the first level of Prud'homme, which is the Canadian version of Cicerone. In really simple terms, there are differences, but it's the simplest way to put it. So I have the first two levels of that and the first level of Cicerone and I also have WSET Level 2 for wine. I did a lot of it to get people to take me seriously, now that I think about it I’m like why did I waste the money? It was great to have the education but I don’t use it in the conventional ways, so now I have the certificates hanging up on the wall in the office. We're so certificate obsessed in the world in general. That it's very like, it’s not what you know so much as what are you actually experiencing? Women and people of color have always had to fight harder to be taken seriously.
Helen: So the work that you do with Beer Diversity, is that just in Canada or do you work in America too?
Ren: I'm pretty lucky I've been doing a lot across the world, especially during these pandemic days, everyone is on zoom now. I think at the beginning it was about consulting for beer so working with restaurants, helping them create their beer listings and staff training. Then the other part was talking about the diversity with those who drink, make and enjoy beer.In the first year, thanks to Twitter, which is normally so terrible, I ended up meeting a lot of Americans who are doing advocacy through beer like Dr. J and Afro Beer Chick. They were really into what I was doing and also Beny and Teo from Crowns and Hops, who when I first met them were still Dope and Dank.
All of these people were so supportive of what I was doing because I think I was the “only one” in Canada who's doing something that is focused on the alcohol industry, so because of them I got in with America. In the first year of the company, I was in Denver speaking at the Craft Brewers Conference on the diversity and inclusion panel, which is super tricky, because Canadians don't get invited to speak at that conference. I've been able to do a lot of stuff throughout Canada. You know, interprovincially. I've done a couple of talks and podcasts with New Zealand. Diversity is not just a Canadian problem it's a universal issue when I'm talking about is easy to respond to you know. Pre-pandemic I did a bunch of travel and our honeymoon was a “beermoon” and we traveled through Europe and you know so I've seen it and experienced it around around different places and I've been really lucky through the internet be able to connect with with people in different spots like Lily Waite and the stuff that she's doing your way - I was just messaging her this morning and I love her so much. To be able to see it and see what she's doing, regardless of what country you're in, it's very important to a very large group of people.
Helen: The UK is SO behind. I think that it comes from this idea we have in the UK of “we don’t have any problems here, look what’s happening over there!”. It's really bizarre but I do feel like there's definitely a feeling of moving in the right direction. I know a lot of breweries here are starting to have these conversations, Cloudwater just released their Wayfinders internship. I’m hoping more breweries will start to follow suit and actually start speaking to the right people. We can't just have the same problem that we always have which is a group of white guys sitting in a room talking about diversity. This isn't gonna work unless you are speaking to marginalised groups.
Ren: I'm trying to help people kind of figure out, you know, it's consulting that I'm doing, but it's also talks and sessions and, and I don't you know, what I tell people is; I don't come in to give you that golden ticket, that gives you all the answers. I'm here to make you question things and learn how to use different words, even just things like stop walking into rooms and saying “what's up guys?” You know, use folks or you could say friends. It’s tricky at first and I still slip. I've talked to friends and they say “yo, that just sounds so different and so welcoming and makes me feel like I'm part of the room”. So I'm trying to talk to people about that and say: what are you putting out there that makes people feel safe?
Stop saying your doors open, because if I don't know where your building is, then it doesn't matter.
It's about getting people to stop and say, “okay, we thought that this was working really well, but it actually turns out that we could have been doing it this way instead”. It’s not a quick fix, and there's no finish line to it. I am cautiously optimistic about some of it, but I know that a lot of these responses are just knee jerk reactions. You know, worlds on fire!
Helen: I’m interested to see what comes out of it, some people are just maybe making initiatives that they haven't fully thought through and especially with longevity. I think even the people who do realise how much of an undertaking the task is, it’s also ever changing. You have to listen to other people, especially the younger generation.
There have been times where I've said things, and my friends who are in their early twenties have been like, “oh, you shouldn't say that because of XYZ”... and you're suddenly like “yes, of course, I don't know why I said that. I'm sorry.” That's the difference, people need to be able to listen, learn and actually be happy to adapt because I think so many people especially and unfortunately in feminism think “well I am a feminist so I’m right” and don’t realise that, that is very much not how things work.
Ren: And I think we need to understand the change of people we hold up as beacons of light… it’s coming out more and more that a lot of our heroes are very problematic.
Helen: Honestly it’s one of the saddest things about getting older at this point, every time I see someone in the news I’m like *adds person to trash bin*
Ren: You know, and someone had once said to me, historical context means nothing because quite often someone's like “Oh, well back in those days blah, blah, blah.” We're still doing that now, so why did they get a free pass? We need to start to question things more and say “why are we holding this up as a great thing when it's terrible?” And not just say okay, it's super terrible just throw it in the bin, let's take a look at it, learn and figure out, was there something that we could have changed? What I find right now is that the world just gets all riled up and they just scream about things and say get rid of whatever. Well, what's the next step? There's never a next step. That's part of what I'm trying to do with this company, is remind people that it's great to get angry, but you have to channel your anger somewhere and to be better.
Helen: Definitely, the weirdly nice thing is that sometimes good things come from people being backed into corners. I had a great conversation with Siobhan (@britishbeergirl) the other day where we talked about reading Lily’s piece for Good Beer Hunting “Buckled Knuckles”. Queer people in the UK beer industry have let Lily do so much of the heavy lifting and it’s not fair to leave all the work to one person, we have to share the load. Which really spurred me on in the building of Burum. It’s about doing the hard work together, she’s one person and it’s wrong of us to wait around and hope she will ‘save us’.
Ren: Exactly, and you can’t exhaust the people you have, we won’t make any changes that way. It’s like that thing when you’re on an airplane and the oxygen masks drop - I put mine on first, if I don’t get mine on properly we’re all screwed.
Helen: How have you found work recently, do you feel like you’ve been busier since the Black Lives Matter protests started? I feel like lots of people were suddenly like “oh this is a problem” (even though this happens every few years anyway) but have you become busier?
Ren: Pre-COVID a good month was running three to four talks… And now I'm probably running two to four talks a week, I have started taking Fridays off because mama needs to sleep! I think part of it is that COVID hit and everyone stopped because we all had to but then the George Floyd video came out… and like you said, this happens every few years. I remember all these pivotal moments, I'm in my 40s, so I remember a lot of really terrible things happening from the 80s till now. I think that when this happened, everyone kind of slammed on the brakes and was like “oh my god, I need to do something”. My phone just blew up, it was one of those things where the battery would run down. In the first week, I said to people, I can't talk to you, because I need to assess what's happened as a black woman… and all my well intentioned white friends kept posting the video on Facebook, and I spent my time being like, “can you take it down?” or “I can't come help your company right now because I gotta put my oxygen mask on before I help you.” So I just said give me two weeks, let me figure it out.
I also wasn't working, I thought I was gonna have to fold the company because at the time my work model was based on me going to breweries and going to colleges and universities doing talks. And obviously I couldn’t do that because we're all going to get some weird virus. So I had about two weeks to re-jig what I was doing and the model of how I was doing it. Thankfully, I like technology. So it was, it was pretty easy, I was nervous but it was pretty easy to make the change. I think that ever since that video was released, and then how many more videos and how many more things have happened. So, companies that a year ago were like “No, I think we're good thanks” are now like “Hey, you're looking good today. Do you wanna run a chat? Do you wanna hang out?”
It just shows people that you have to remove white guys making up your diversity and inclusion policies, and doing your anti racist statements and that it hasn’t been good enough. I'm no expert. Again, I'm an English major, you know I'm trying to educate myself as I go along, reading a lot... But at the same time, I know the industry and I know what it was before. I know that we haven't made huge strides, and that a lot needs to change.
I think that people were looking for a quick fix for the longest while are now realizing that: no, we need to educate ourselves, keep reviewing, and keep figuring out stuff because we weren't doing it right on our own.
Helen: I listened to a podcast featuring Julia Coney where she talked about the fact that you can’t just hire diversely you have to have the support systems in place for those people to work in that establishment. A black woman, or a trans woman has completely different needs to what a white male has… I just thought that conversation was amazing.
Ren: People say “it’s a problem to fix” but it’s people. That’s the thing that needs to be remembered. A lot of companies say “I'm gonna give you this much time” and it's like “cool, but I'm gonna watch you! Just because I've done the session doesn't mean like you got the gold star from Ren and move on”. I kind of back out of the room, doing the like “I’m watching you” gesture. I think that's why I'm so vocal on Twitter because when I started all of this I was very like; be nice, be welcoming, be very friendly, be like “the safe black woman”. After a while I was like that is getting me nothing but more heartburn and sleepless nights and I just was like “listen, I got some beef, I'm gonna serve it up”
Helen: But I think people need that, people need to be held accountable and I think that that it’s important to call people out. I think that people will just say ”well we did, like a training session so we're all cool now!”
Ren: Now everything's virtual, I'm doing it so that we do a session where you tell me what you think is good about your company and what needs to change, what does your company look like? And now I do a follow up a couple of weeks later to be like, okay, so I was here and we chatted, now what's your plan? People get caught off guard on that because now there's like extra accountability. It’s been so fantastic though. I've done sessions with some people where they come back with pages of stuff and they're like; here are the things we identified and these are things that we can actually change within a shorter period of time than we thought. Yeah. Everyone makes it sound so hard, they’re like “I just want black people to work for me”. And it's like, no no, you want a diverse workforce, which means that there are other people that you want.
Helen: Have you done any work in the UK?
Ren: No I want to because you know, when you're little everyone has that like, that one weird country obsession and mine was England. I have been like four or five times you know, and part of our honeymoon we passed through. So yeah, I would love to do something with the UK market, because I think it's needed across the board… that’s what I’m really looking for; world domination.
Helen: So you’re getting super busy now, surely you’re gonna have to start expanding?
Ren: I think that I want someone else to create a similar company so we can tag team off of each other. The “problem” is that the way I have is the way that I’ve done this is based on my personal experiences… which means I have to find someone who is also willing to share their personal experiences and I don’t want to take that person out of beer or out of wine or spirits because they need to be there. So guest speakers maybe, but I would really love to have it like the States, there are so many groups doing so many amazing things to move forward and like here it’s just me.
Helen: So how long have you been married, and how did you both meet (if you don’t mind me asking)?
Ren: It will be six years on Monday. We both worked in a call centre and I'd been there for probably a decade before she rolled up and I was higher management, and then quit. Then they were like “work here part time”. Then part time ended up being practically full time. We actually didn't like each other when we first met. We told this story at our wedding and I was like “we’re gonna have the story of how we met, it’s going to be so beautiful” but no I didn't care about her, I’ve always said “oh, I hated her” and Rebecca is like “no, no, no, you were so apathetic about my existence, that was worse”. And I didn't learn her name for the first while either. I just called her new girl!
Her trainer at work was a really good friend of mine and we had worked together. We used to do like afterwards beverages, so he brought his training group and she was part of it. So we started talking and actually hit it off, we had a long friendship before anything started. And actually if it weren't for her, this company wouldn't exist. She's been crazy supportive because I hated working in life insurance and had quit that company and then I wanted to go back to school and she was like why don't you just do it and we'll figure it out. Then I ended up needing a part time job and that's how I got into beer. She's always been really supportive. It's been so amazing, she's pushed me and has been my number one cheerleader, so I don’t think I would have done this company on my own. I mean, considering I kind of fell into it, but she's super like, you can do this, you got this!
Helen: In terms of beer, what has your experience been like as a queer person?
Ren: It’s been pretty good. I feel like I'm hyper aware of what happens with beer; I don't know if I can just enjoy stuff that gets put out anymore… because I'm always watching. There are some firms that really got it, and do things respectfully and engage with the community in such wonderful ways. I always say like, don't let Pride Month dictate when you're like “oh yeah, queers drink beers too”. And if you have to do that, because we're human, and we have to follow these weird rules; engage with that community. Don't just be like “we made a beer, who cares?”. So if you have staff members who are willing to talk about it, and they're out and comfortable; let them let them be the ones who guide you and again, with LGBTQ+ homebrew groups, bring them in, you know what I mean? So I've been watching that and I'm happy to see quite a few places starting to get it and at least starting to try and make some changes and be more inclusive.
Some places have even released a beer earlier than Pride Month, and some are keeping them on longer so it exists through a different period of time. One of the breweries that I do a lot of work with do a beer that comes out every year and it actually marks a political moment in the changing of LGBTQ+ laws. So there's an educational moment behind it and if you want to take the time to go and learn then there it is, which I just think is so awesome.
Helen: Especially because no one teaches queer history apart from queer people to other queer people. Or if you're like me and are constantly telling every person that they meet about queer things because I just can't help myself. I think that's a really cool thing to do though, especially with beer being such a heavy masc environment. I think it's really nice to introduce our history to people who maybe wouldn't know as much.
It’s frustrating really because beer is quite literally for everyone but it’s a traditionally working class person’s drink that is easily accessible, but now it has been elevated and essentially taken away, as all things end up being and people shouldn’t ever have to feel like it’s not for them. It’s just a drink. It makes me think of Zafa wines who have the tagline “it’s just fucking fermented grape juice”. I want more people to feel like they have access to these things, especially queer and people of colour, especially when beer itself is such an accessible drink, there are so many styles and yet it’s been hidden away in an inaccessible pocket of society.
Ren: I used to work at festivals and people who weren’t into craft beer would come up and be like look, I don’t want weird craft beer, I just want beer… my whole thing is if your brewery can make a great lager, you can make anything… the most accessible beer is going to be a lager right? So why don’t you have something to bridge that gap and bring them over to the dark side of craft beer?
Helen: I don't ever want people to feel any form of shame over what they drink either. I think you drink what you know. And also you drink what you can afford so it. Don’t be classist, there's a reason that all these different drinks exist.
Ren: I think we forget about the socio economic diversity of the beer drinker. I'm with you, it's like, well, maybe that's all I can afford. And, you know, I come into your pub, or your brewery once a month, because I've saved up some extra to treat myself. I think we have to remember that.
Helen: I got super into beer when I started working at the bar but before that I would rarely go to that bar because we just didn't have enough money to drink there. So I'm like, great, I have access to all this stuff and I get to drink all these things, but it's about remembering that not everybody has that and it’s not a normal thing. I think people definitely do forget about that. Which is why I started doing the blog and the website that I'm running at the moment because I guess I want people to relax a bit. I feel like there's a lot of fronting and the beer communities can be cliquey… I know that’s a really hot take.
It got to the point where I was just attending too many events with sucky people and I just wanted to meet fun, nice people. I think this is the best way to do it because at least if it's across the internet, then I can find the kind of people who don't get upset because you don’t always care about what you’re drinking. I spent most of lockdown drinking wine spritzers because I was like, I'm gonna buy a cheap bottle of wine and I'm gonna buy lemonade and it's gonna be incredible… And it was every single time and it doesn't mean I don't like nice wine, it just means that sometimes I don’t want to think about it.
Ren: We have a ton of stuff in the fridge that don't have to think about it to drink it. So during lockdown, we started rewatching all of Rupaul’s Drag Race from like season 1… but during that, like, who cares what you're drinking, right? You're not gonna sit there and be like “ooh, I got this fresh, new, whatever” and that's that's what I love and I'm trying to get back to some of that. I mean, don't get me wrong, we have an aging cabinet and we have the fancy as fuck beers, and we have really great wines… but we also have the stuff in between where I just want to sit and watch Drag Race for eight hours and not think about stuff. We're not rocket scientists or finding a cure for cancer, it’s beer
Helen: It’s often the people who don't actually work in beer who I guess have office jobs and they have lots of money and a lot of time talk as if they are in the industry… and they'll tell you all about the things they have in their cupboard and you're just like… I don’t care.
Ren: Well, I think that if we can quiet some of that and let people know that you can come in and ask any question. There's no question that's dumb because, again, if we're sitting in the middle of that, we have the ability to educate ourselves and are hands on so if someone comes forward and just says “I normally drink this macro” you shouldn't be like, oh that sucks, just be like, cool, we make something that's comparable and can list all the ingredients in 30 seconds or less and not 10 minutes… but otherwise, it's just about making people welcome.
Helen: I guess as a very broad question, how do you feel beer can improve as an industry for queer people but also marginalised groups in general?
Ren: I think it's a lot of signal boosting… just showing who you're being influenced by. There's a group in Nova Scotia, that is the Change Is Brewing Collective and it's all people of color, who are interested in beer in some shape or form. So like one of the main guys Gio is a brewer at a Halifax brewery and they're doing brews in different breweries each time and talking about what, what brought them together so it's great to see breweries connect for things like that.
Talking to the community and asking the questions of what do you need? And for differently abled people, “is my brewery accessible?”. People forget about these things, you know “you have a ramp but your doorway is just too small, I'm not getting in”... And when you're posting on Instagram, are you doing extra pieces, one of the breweries that I work with posted a full instagram and then did a full visual description of the image to make sure that everyone understands what's happening. So I think that it's stuff where you don't have to do it on the regular but just every so often show that you're trying to make a couple of changes.
I think that a lot of breweries specifically assume that change has to be a massive overhaul. Like it's one baby step, and another and then another, and then maybe you take two steps back because you made a mistake, but then you have to learn from the mistake. I think that those are the key pieces and to just always be open learning and open to criticism and understand who criticises you. I think that's the other thing where a lot of places are afraid to lose clientele and it's like, “so you're afraid to lose racist, homophobic people who hate women?” So take a look at who you're trying to appease? If that person is a piece of crap, then you're telling the rest of us that we don't matter to you, so we're never coming in and we'll just find another place to go.
Helen: What’s next for you in terms of Beer Diversity?
Ren: I'm still doing a ton of sessions... I'm not doing anything with the public right now, it's all company based, which is fantastic. I'm slowly starting to work on the brewery inclusion toolkit, which I'm hoping to have out by next summer, but my aim is to have parts of it out by the spring. Every time I think I have free time, I get booked up for a session… I don't want to say no to sessions! It's like the side project that needs to be a little bit more of a main project. But that's the next thing that's coming out.
The plan with that toolkit is actually to roll it out for breweries first than wine and spirits. And just have it with subtle changes throughout, a lot of the infos are gonna cross over, but that's my next plan. I’m partnering with a couple of breweries to do scholarships. If anyone knows Dominion City in Ottawa, I partnered with them last year to do a scholarship and that's a five year commitment. And then one with North Brewing, which is in Nova Scotia which they just announced yesterday!
It’s really cool because they're doing it a little differently to Dominion City who partner with a specific college whereas North Brewing are opening it up, and basically are like “you have to be within this area” which gives you a choice of a bunch of different schools. And then it's cash plus a commitment to a summer job at North Brewing to like work on your skills. That's gonna be an annual thing also. Both breweries are so wonderful I'm hoping that that kind of gets other breweries to start doing scholarships, or bursaries. Those are the main things I'm working on and just also trying to remember to take some time off and just chill out.
Helen: Very quickly I just wanted to ask you; have you been watching Canada's drag race? And who are your favorites?
Ren: It was weird to get used to because of the whole flip of the like judge thing but I am still watching. I still love it. I think that Boa was robbed. I think she should have made it further and I'm really loving Jimbo.
We discussed Canada’s drag race, alongthe trials and tribulations of diversity on Drag Race at length which was the most fun. We also then discussed her favourite places to eat and drink where she is based:
“In Toronto, there's a bar called WVRST. We actually got married there and it's an amazing beer bar, great food, great people. So that's like a favorite in Toronto. And then in Kitchener, Arabella Park, which is a really great beer bar but like great wines like natural wines and great cider list, just really good people. One of my favorites, a like teeny tiny little place closed down because of COVID. It was so small that even if they were allowed to open they would get like three people in there, so it's gone after a lot of years.
I'm really looking at supporting places that don't just make good things, but are also good people. A lot of breweries that I love are also doing community outreach, or great signal boosting, and a lot of the restaurants are doing the same thing. So that's that's what I'm looking for and that's what I'm supporting right now.”
A huge thank you to Ren for agreeing to be interviewed, it was an honestly an honour and a pleasure to meet you. The next interview is going to be released in a couple of weeks time with Michael and Heather from Out & About.
