Behind the Bar with Neutral Cider Hotel
At the start of the year myself and Helen sat down with the trio behind the Neutral Cider Hotel podcast; Gabe Cook, Grant Hutchison & Martyn Goodwin-Sharman.
Neutral Cider Hotel launched in October last year and has already made a name for itself as a podcast that is both fun and educational, as informal as it is informative and, most importantly, one that champions all that is good and wonderful about the world of cider.
In a time where laughing and sharing stories amongst friends has become a rarity the warmth and humour shared between Gabe, Grant and Martyn has been of such comfort.
If you would like to listen to what they have to say, as well as their wonderful guests, then you can do so here. But for now, join us as we discuss the importance of language, alternative ways of pairing what we drink, the impact of Covid and, of course, our shared love of cider.
So, first questions, could you start off with who you are, what you do, and where you're based?
Gabe: Do I go first?
Martyn: Yes, obviously
Gabe: My name is Gabe Cook. I'm the Ciderologist, which is obviously a made up word. I’m a cider advocate, I suppose that’s the easiest and most all encompassing way of saying it. I write and talk and teach and taste and train. I'm not a drinks expert, it’s just cider. The area that I'm from is all about the cider and that informs everything that I do and all the passion. I'm currently based in Devon, but looking to move back to the Bristol region very shortly.
Grant: I’m next then, let’s save the best for last. I’m Grant Hutchinson, I run a business called re:stalk which is a cider distribution and import company. So I buy directly from makers and sell to pubs and restaurants. I'm based in Scotland, previously Glasgow, but I’ve now moved to Fife, by the beach, which is quite lovely.
Martyn: I’m Martyn Goodwin-Sharman and I'm a cider advocate, I'm @cidershit on Instagram and I work in the trade. I used to run bottle shops and pubs. But now I work in a pub in Bristol, which is also where I live, called The Good Measure.
Helen: So could you explain how each of you got into cider?
Gabe: Cider for me is all about the little village that I grew up in which is called Dymock, right on the Herefordshire/ Gloucestershire border, heartland cider country. Loads of old orchards around, Westons cider makers in the village next door, Bulmers, the world's biggest cider makers, just a few miles away. My Mum grew up on a farm that grew cider apples, making cider on the farm and also selling some fruit to Westons; so just a little bit of maybe feeling that all around when I was a youngster and cider being my preferred drink of choice when I was getting into drinking and enjoying drinking.
I just sort of continued down that rabbit hole ever since, wanting to try and taste new or interesting or different ciders. It went from the larger brands, to Westons, who 20 years ago were making sensational cider and still makes good cider today.
Then I came across the Ross on Wye Cider and Perry company and ended up living and working on the farm for a year and I learnt the skill of making it. But it was more infused with a passionate interest for the heritage and the culture and the stories and the varieties and that was it really, just set loose from then and I have endeavoured to make drinking and talking about cider a job ever since.
Grant: I mean much like Gabe, without having grown up in the region, cider was just my preferred drink of choice when it came to having pints in the pub. I would always go with cider and then I fell heavily for the Magners effect when that hit.
Then it kind of grew from there for me. Through my work as a musician in a band, we traveled and every time we played Bristol I would go to the Bristol cider shop, I don’t think it's there at all now, and fill a bag of cider and bring it back. When we traveled to the US I discovered that there was so much over there as well. That was very different from Strongbow or Magners, kind of sweeter or artificial drinks. I just discovered that there was much more to it. That’s kind of where we are now and similar to Gabe with Ross on Wye, specifically The Headless Man, that bottle was a big turning point for me.
Martyn: I grew up in Wadebridge, North Cornwall and a big part of the drinking culture in the youth there, which I kind of shouldn't talk about, is a cider maker called Healeys, they have a drink called Rattler. And the old bar tap used to be a rattlesnake with sunglasses on. Which, when you're getting into alcohol, I think it was like 7% at the time, it's slowly come down, but it was a beast. And so smashing a ludicrous amount of that back in my teens was how I got into it.
Then I went to uni in Cheltenham, where there’s more ciders out there as well, and student unions it's all Foster's or Thatcher's Gold, and it's a hands down win with Thatchers. Then I moved to London, worked in a cocktail bar and then a boozer and I ended up running a pub called the Cock Tavern. We had eight ciders and I just fell in love with it there, like head over heels. What made it even more standout for me really was the fact that it seemed like only four men in their 50s cared? There was this plethora of extravagant drinks, and from all the makers everyone chats about now, we were just drinking them by the pint, their best products. So like Oliver’s Gold Rush on handpull, I was just like, what the fuck is this? So that's how I got into it.
Rachel: So can you talk to us about how Neutral Cider Hotel came about?
Gabe: Well, I think it starts with Grant.
Grant: Well, it was something I’d thought about for a while. And then certainly after I met Gabe, I was like, this guy is a walking podcast, so we need to do something. I hadn’t really known Gabe that long, maybe, what? 2018? Summer of 2018.
I wasn't long into my cider journey at that point in terms of what I was drinking so I felt like there wasn't really enough information out there for me to easily learn more about the ciders that were being made that I wanted to drink. And it felt like a podcast was, well, I stupidly thought it was the easiest thing. I’ve since found out that's not the case.
But it's the easiest way to consume it, I guess, for people listening and through, again, through the band I knew a guy in the US who had moved from digital radio to podcasts and he had offered previously to help if ever I had an idea. So I said to Gabe, do you fancy doing it?
Then for about a year we were both like, yes, but we don't have time. Not that that’s changed, but now we just squeeze it in somehow.
Martyn: The world started ending then didn’t it.
Grant: Well that was it, I guess lockdown started and I was like, okay we’ve got shit loads of time now, so I put the idea to Gabe.
Gabe: Well yeah, so about four years ago, I think, I had just moved back from New Zealand and was getting back to cider and I had a network of people but things have really changed between 2013 and 2016. Loads of things have changed. And Tom Oliver said, ‘you've got to go and speak to this guy. Martyn. He gets it. He's into it. Go and have a chat with him the next time you’re in London.’
So we did, we met and Tom was absolutely spot on. And it's like, wow. It was brilliant for there to be somebody who was so passionate and evocative in terms of their language and presentation. Brilliant. Then I heard you were moving down to Bristol. And you ended up getting a job, me living in Bristol at the time, at my local pub.
And then, especially 2019, with the pub being open, The Good Measure, and I spent a lot of time in there then with events and activities and the Cider Salon in 2019. I think that really solidified and catalysed and did lots of things and Grant, you came down for that, that’s probably the first time that you've met Martyn, I suppose.
The joy, and I are not going to dwell on it too much because it makes me too sad, but the joy of going down to The Good Measure is you sit at the bar and you speak to whomever and Martyn converses with you and you have the best time and the funniest conversations are happening. I was with my housemate who does a podcast about football, he's a Wolverhampton Wanderers fan, he does a podcast and he was saying, you need to capture the essence of what's being said here. Yes, cider or beer is kind of the broad tent of what's hanging it together. But it goes off in all the tangents. And as Grant said, you know, the idea, we should do it and like, yeah, we should do it, but when or how?
So with the coming of Covid the sort of the time or the inclination element really sort of stepped up. But I think that both Grant and I realised that we're maybe not that funny, or not funny enough. It just seemed like a real natural step for Martyn to come in and to unite us.
Martyn: Well, it's become more prevalent now with the absence of pubs. For us the booze is a catalyst for the conversation and where it goes, but it is nice to just sit down, have some drinks and have a laugh. The goal is to encapsulate that. I don't know what these guys thought initially, but since we started recording, it felt like we just got to kind of make the pub at home.
Helen: Definitely, it’s great because with the three of you it's a really nice mix of personalities. And I mean, Gabe, you say you’re not funny, but I mean, we're always laughing.
Gabe: Laughing with me or laughing at my four minute questions that ends with a yes or no answer?
Martyn: But you’ve really leaned into it, from like the amount of book plugs. I was a bit gutted listening to today's episode, there's only two and they’re within a second of each other.
Helen: Actually, funnily enough, the next question is about books. So Gabe, you're going to be writing a second book. Can you tell us what that's going to be about?
Gabe: So, it's been commissioned by CAMRA books, the publishing arm of CAMRA. It's called Modern British Cider. They're in a period of change about their approach to beer and cider in general. I've been told that I can write whatever I want, how I want it, they've come to me as an expert, to lend my insight into what is the state of play with cider in this modern age within Britain, the sort of the movements and the trends that bring us to this point. What is happening? Where's it going? Where are the opportunities? Who are we celebrating? Who are we highlighting? What are the challenges, what's not being done right?
I did a load of interviews before Christmas, not really any cider makers, but with people who are observers, or who form different trenches of the cider sphere to understand their perspective. What are some of the important things going on, or where are the challenges or opportunities? It's formulating in my mind that there's actually quite an interesting story to talk about and to shed light on some of the wonderful things that are happening at the moment, some of the significant downfalls, but ultimately, just celebrate this amazing drink that is still not very well understood, or appreciated. Anything that we can do to try and change that is going to be a good thing.
Helen: I imagine that's gonna be a really interesting roundup as well, because so much has changed and so much is still changing, even now as we go from, you know, 2020 into 2021. I'm very excited to get my copy.
Grant: Gabe, do you feel like Ciderology is already out of date? *everyone laughs* It’s a genuine question about how quickly, ciders moving, and, how do you approach writing a new book that you also hope will be out of date quite soon? In a good way! I mean this in a good way.
Gabe: Grant, before I answer your question, can I say you're turning into me? Because a, you are asking me a question on somebody else's podcast. And you're insulting me as well. Brilliant. I love it. My work is complete!
Yes you're totally right. There were nine months from me basically finishing the book to it being published. And it almost felt that in that nine months, that was during 2018, that things sort of shifted a bit and some of the numbers and the data and the this and that. Now, it's not to say that, I suppose the nature of this book is that some of it is more about storytelling and trying to capture some of those elements.
In terms of, whereas it was a little bit then about sort of saying, ‘Hi, this is cider, cider is kind of nice’, but, we're kind of beyond that now, brilliantly. It's now ‘Oh, yeah, we're cider. This is what this is, what's happening and what's going on.’ So you're absolutely right. Things are moving really, really fast. So it is exciting. But please do continue to buy Ciderology.
Martyn: Not to add another question onto it, but with the publishing element of it being CAMRA and the pub landscape changing... well there has always been a view that they appreciate cider by pints more, because it leans into the pub culture, but this year has kind of decimated that drinking culture. How do you find their approach to the drink changing and allowing this, commissioning this book to go through?
Gabe: That strong pub focus will remain when pubs come back to the fore of our lives in society, but it feels like they're broadening their approach to wanting to explore and represent the drinks more so than possibly the actual pub or even the brewing process. The celebration of that diversity that's also in packaging and in opportunity. The fridge might get a bit more attention than before, and the modes of different dispense. Whether it be bottled, 330 ml, or can or 750 ml or conditioned or, even kegged from quality, smaller cider makers.
Just moving the narrative just from having a bag in a box, sat on the fridge, under the hot lights, to saying cider can be served in different ways, and different formats. CAMRA was already going through this period of change prior to Covid hitting, but it almost seems Covid has massively sort of accelerated that process.
It’s going to be a fascinating year to see just how many really potentially significant changes around the drinks category there are going to be. Things that were moving in a direction, might stop entirely or go on. There are so many unknown questions, I was talking about 18 months ago, that there was going to need to be some sort of catalyst in order for cider to really kind of break through or do something, I'm now wondering whether Covid might actually be that sort of forced, or facilitated consumers to explore more, like it’s actually opened up their eyes in the world of things a bit more.
Helen: 100% Thank you, thank you for your questions as well Grant and Martyn. This is much easier. Do you guys just want to keep talking?
Rachel: And we’ll just type it up and take the credit.
Talking of influences between cider and beer, we talk a lot at Burum about what we call, I guess, compound drinking? So how beer, wine and cider kind of overlaps and influences one another. And Martyn we wanted you to talk to us a bit about how working in pubs and working with craft beer has influenced your interest in cider and how they work together? Or perhaps don’t work together?
Martyn: Well, the big thing for me wasn't necessarily the pub, in the pub is where I fell in love with cider itself. But the bottle shop culture that's sprung up in the UK has been the bigger change. And it's simply because it kind of inherently commands respect for a product if you've curated this list, rather than, for example, ‘have you got any Pale Fire?’ No. ‘Ah, well I’ll have the pale ale that's on then.’
Whereas with the consumer and having this kind of library and infinite sort of choice, and option paralysis, they end up finding things they like and going on their own journey. And craft beer has always been like ‘no, we need to be taken seriously’. And cider I thought would be on the coattails of that, but it just didn't kind of catch in the same way. And I think it took bottling and that kind of respect of the product and labelling and packaging, the whole process to kind of mirror the intentions of craft beer and natural wine as well.
We were selling loads of like crazy Gamays and shit in the bottle shop and people were coming in for Beaujolais and like crazy Cavas and stuff that’s like unfiltered. And then they would pick up a cider that was positioned next to those. And a lot of people came to cider in my eyes and in my shop through like, ‘oh, this is like natty wine’. And I always thought it'd be beer because I was presented to it in a pint format.
But I think people have that established ‘oh, no, I know what that is because I've always drank that’. Whereas when it came to cork and cage and talk of techniques, stuff like keeving as a separator, this isn't just the same tap presented in a different way. It's a whole new experience. So I think just the respect for the product is what worked wonderfully for craft cider.
Helen: Grant, you're behind Re:stalk and you work in cider distribution. What's your personal criteria for sourcing the cider that you're going to distribute?
Grant: For me, it’s basically, would I drink it myself? That's the bottom line. But because I do a bunch of importing I don't actually always get to try it, you know. Usually my relationship, certainly with my suppliers and cider makers overseas starts on social media. I get in touch with them, or they'll get in touch with me and start a conversation, and I'll ask questions about the process that they use, how the cider is made, where the fruit is from. And that sort of gives you a good idea of how much care goes into the product, because I think that's important. It might not be something that everybody loves, or everybody wants to drink. But for me, as long as there’s some kind of care gone into it and the producers have honed a skill and haven't just decided ‘oh ciders on the up, I'm gonna jump on that bandwagon’, which is something we might see.
I have to look at it from a business side as well and trends currently being you know, more towards your pet-nat style ciders with wild ferment. You know, presentation again, so 750 ml format is something that people are looking for. So, there's quite a lot of things to kind of pool together.
And also with Brutes cider, the other Swedish cider that I’ve brought in, they contacted me, and they offered to send me some as well. But then again, with Eves from the US and Anxo, I'm not going to wait three weeks to get a bottle to try it. So, I think there's a lot of trust involved when it comes to importing stuff.
It's still quite a small market on both sides in terms of makers and consumers at the moment. So it's quite easy, I think that it’s probably going to get harder as more people start to make cider commercially. We're probably going to see a lot of urban cideries appearing and then there'll be a point and maybe this happened with beer, where quality control is going to have to be a bit tighter and a bit stricter at my end. People quite quickly cottoned on to the 750 ml format, stick a label on it and you know, the contents are less important… But right now you know with the small amount of great producers it's quite easy to know what's going to be good and what's not.
Rachel: Gabe, as part of your role as Ciderologist you're involved with cider education. Could you talk to us about what it is exactly that you do and I guess what the options are for anyone who's looking into starting any form of cider education this year?
Gabe: So I teamed up with the Institute of Brewing and Distilling, which is an organisation that primarily provides technical training and education to those industries. General certificates, diplomas, and full Master's in brewing, distilling and malting. But they have also run a Beer Academy program for the last 20 years or so, which is a program to create better knowledge and understanding around language and stylisation for the benefit of enthusiasts, and people who work in trade who are on the frontline advocating towards consumers; effectively creating beer sommelier qualifications.
And it was probably the first thing, the first bit of project, that I saw the opportunity but I really wanted and thought, and still think, that cider desperately needs the introduction of more language lexicon, discussion around stylisation process, packaging, and a little bit deeper. So I approached the IBD. And they said, ‘yeah, do it’.
I then wrote the cider component for the Beer and Cider Academy and it's been running ever since. I think the first program was just over, three years ago. Since Covid hit, we haven't done any training because I really wanted to ensure, I've felt that the best way to do it was for it to be in a classroom. There are other types of qualification whereby here's the reading list. And then you go and do your multiple choice question online. Hey, presto, you've got your qualification and yes, I'm sure that you would be more informed but it's not like learning a bit more about beer or wine or spirits where there already is such great wealth of knowledge and understanding about it. We have to do the rootsy bit in the classroom to discuss it because it's moving and changing and evolving all the time. So there hasn't been any classroom based teaching since March very sadly.
I'm looking to try and bring the foundation, which is the first tier, into an online capacity. Fingers crossed early this year we might be able to get that up and running. So check out beerandcideracademy.org, is the place to go and keep your ears to the ground. We'll get that up and running as things open up.
During the course of the year you could also buy Ciderology, *everyone laughs* it’s not a bad textbook for getting you started if nothing else and obviously if cider making is of interest rather than just somebody waffling on about it. Craft Cider Making by Andrew Lee is kind of a little Bible, very brilliant book. Or the The New Cidermakers Handbook by a chap called Claude Jolicoeur, he's super technical as well. And a whole range of other books that can send you down the cider wormhole as well. Felix Nash did his Fine Cider books which are his take on the world of cider.. Susanna Forbes, The Cider Insider, looking at some of the best ciders from around the world. It is a great opportunity to show that there are exquisite ciders being made in Portugal, in Australia, in New Zealand, and of course, all over the USA where there are really exciting things going on.
Helen: Awesome. I mean, we'll be paying attention. I want to learn about everything which is a nightmare for my schedule. But I imagine if you do a foundation class, I'll be there!
So, Martyn, you've been doing work with Pilton over this past year, including doing a collaborative blend with them. Do you have any interest in making your own cider?
Martyn: Look, the beauty of that was that was just all from being a loud, gobby shit about it. I got an email from Martin ages ago because I was ordering so much cider, and just talking about it so much. He messaged saying, you know, I'd love to get you down after all this is done. And it was just one of those light bulb moments where my wife was working from home, so her car was available, I'm insured on it. And I thought “well I’m never gonna have an opportunity like this”. So I went down. And he just said whatever you want to make it's fine. Which is an unreal kind of offer. And since then, we've done a few blends, I think we're doing number five tomorrow.
Those have been very different. But In Touch, which was the Dunleavey collab, he said just drink anything you want in the shed and if you make it, we'll package it, which was a mindblower. But to answer the question, yes, I'd love to. But I'm very much a procrastinator, when it comes to committing to stuff and it isn't cheap starting up anything but collabs and blends and stuff are already happening. I got to revisit Little Pomona last year too because we'll be doing a blend with them. So plenty on the horizon for this year, hopefully.
Rachel: We talk a lot about food and drink pairings, but Grant for Salford Beer Fest I saw you did a cider and music pairing, which was super cool. Could you talk us through your process for pairing those ciders with those songs?
Grant: Like you said, there's a lot of pairing drink with food. That's just the kind of standard pairing process. And there are so many brilliant people that do that already. And I figured that with my previous career in music, bringing those two passions together would be the best way for me to get people interested on both sides. To get people in cider to listen to new music, and to get people that are interested in music, to start drinking some decent cider.
There are three different ways I'll pair a cider with a song. The first one would be something that's very personal that I guess, anyone could really do and does all the time without really realising, where you'd drink something or you eat something and it reminds you of a time in your life and takes you back there. It's a kind of experiential thing. Or it might be the first cider that you tried, that really kind of changed your perception, like I was saying about Headless Man. And I know that Gabe spoke, when we did our Instagram chat about cider and music, most of the choices he made were very much like ‘a Ross on Wye cider takes me back to when I worked there and was listening to this’ and so that’s one way of pairing.
Another process is to imagine the cider as if it was a song. So is it particularly heavy? Is it one that you would share? Is it one you would drink alone? I always feel like the kind of West Country, tannic, big, bold ciders should you know, be paired with something similar, like Mogwai or some kind of wall of sound? Because they're quite unforgiving.
The third one is, what do you want to listen to when you're drinking this cider? Because people don't really think much about that with food, in restaurants and bars. It’s more just oh, whoever's in charge of the playlist that day they get to listen to what they want to listen to, or they pick a fucking coffee shop playlist on Spotify. You have to listen to like, Katy Melua B Sides. It's not like I'll get up once I finish a bottle and say ‘oh, I can't possibly listen to that now’, it's not as strict as that. Katy Perry might mix quite well with an Islay cask Ross on Wye, it’s probably not what I would put together but
Martyn: In Touch pairs exclusively with Katy Perry’s Alien or Extraterrestrial. Kanye’s verse on that and the pinot…
Helen: I believe there have been scientific studies that have shown what you're listening to affects how things taste.
Grant: Absolutely. I mean, you have to feel comfortable and at ease to really enjoy what you're drinking. So it makes total sense to me that you would encompass all the senses to try and lift that experience as much as you can.
Helen: Yeah, it's really cool. You don’t see that enough. I love working with Rach, last year, you paired wine with star signs, which was one of my favourite things that you’ve done. That was super fun.
Martyn: What was Leo just for reference?
Rachel: Oh god I can't remember now, so long ago, but I’ll find it and let you know. I just think it's important to try and, like you said Grant, attract other people and make it interesting to other audiences as opposed to just food because you don't always eat every time you drink, but you might listen to music or you talk to your friends. You do all sorts of other different things. I just thought it was really interesting.
[EDITORS NOTE: It was an Australian Shiraz. Rachel wrote: “A sign sometimes referred to as 'The Endless Summer' you are sunshine personified. An Australian Shiraz personified as well, as generous in nature as they are in their warmth, body and alcohol. Like drinking a very good hug at the end of a long day, the sun pouring on your face on your weekend stroll, the comfort of a well crafted log fire.”]
Grant: Definitely. And it can change how you perceive a drink or a meal, quite drastically, I think. I don't think you're ever going to get to the point where you can go and see a gig at Brixton Academy and order a bottle of Art of Darkness 2016 to go along with it.
But since the Salford Independent Beer Festival tasting I’ve heard from a lot of people after it. They’d gone back to the playlist and delved deeper into certain artists' catalogues. And because they liked it, it opened their eyes to some new music, which is the point of it.
Martyn: You also did it at a time when a lot of people were quite receptive. If you're connecting online, it's just so different. Having a completely different experience for a lot of people to engage in, with music and flavour like this, just seems like it was winner winner.
Grant: Definitely. It was great. I know that you guys have been to a couple of Manchester Cider Clubs? Which is another way of a community coming together. You mentioned the podcast as well Martyn. You know, losing out on the experience of being at a pub, you don't really realise until you get a hint at that experience back as to how important that is. And the Salford Beer Festival and Manchester Cider Club were great for that. And especially with the music because for some reason when pubs re-opened they weren't even allowed to fucking play music.
Helen: Yeah, it has to be played at a lower volume, because if you're more likely to raise your voice, you're more likely to spit. We had to have it at a lower volume. People weren’t allowed to sing.
Rachel: We just spent all of last year having to tell people off for singing or raising their voice when they were excited and it was hard.
Martyn: I wanted to ask you guys quickly, with the talk about hospitality, and the music and everything. How have you felt in Wales? Does it feel like there's a barrier to being hospitable in a hospitable environment? Because you're essentially telling people a list of things they can't do rather than giving them a space where they can relax
Helen: I mean, I can't imagine as a member of the public that it's a relaxing environment. I've not really been out drinking anywhere because I just go to work and then I would go straight back home because in my mind it's probably safer. But from the perspective of working behind a bar, I mean, Rachel, you've done the most hosting at the bar we work at and you’re just like a school teacher now aren't you? You're constantly telling people to sit down, put their mask on, do this, do that, it’s exhausting. And it’s not fun for them either.
Rachel: It’s not fun for anyone. I started in August. And I’m a bartender but because I've been a General Manager at my previous job my managers here were like well, you know how to host, so you can do the door. So my main job is kind of hosting and ‘manning’ the floor, and it is the most consistent I've had altercations with customers I think. It's exhausting. It's shit that we're closed right now but I'm mentally quite glad to have the break. It’s not easier but it’s different for the team behind the bar because we do everything through an app, so they get orders through a screen, and then they take them to tables. But my role is more, just, can you keep your mask on? Can you sit down? Can you not talk to that table? Can you stop shouting? Can you do this? And which in a bar that serves predominantly men who predominantly come to get drunk is…
All of last year was pretty much just being shouted at and having really horrible interactions with customers. And it's not being hospitable, in any way, it's taken all of the joy out of serving people. It's just been shit, really. So yeah, it is horrible that we're closed, but I am glad that I don't have to just keep arguing every day because it's just.. a lot.
Martyn: I do think a lot of those people are like “I’ve finished work and I get to go to the pub again!”. But they see it quite bluntly as, and I've had it a few times, ‘you actually had a holiday didn't you!’. Well, no I struggled mentally in a room not knowing if I had a job or not for fucking three months.
Rachel: What I’ve found is it's been worse the longer it's been going on. I think obviously people are so frustrated at everything. And the people that they interact with the most are the people that serve them in supermarkets and shops and bars and restaurants. And, it’s a very lazy thing to do but we're very easy punching bags, aren't we? For everyone’s frustrations. I understand that no one is great right now and we’re just quite an easy target for people to take their frustrations out on.
Helen: I agree, sometimes though having your regulars and the people that you've missed, has been really nice. We’ve actually kind grown closer to some of our regulars through that. And that's really nice.
Helen: We’ve got two more questions for you and these are to the room. So again, we'll let you fight over this. From an accessibility perspective, one of the things I really enjoy about Neutral Cider Hotel is that you talk about all ciders. Whether you're talking about the cider that you've come across in an Aldi or your £15+ bottles. What are your opinions on terms like fine cider or even just, cider is wine
Grant: I mean, Gabe sort of mentioned the lexicon and the language of the cider earlier and it's something that I think is lacking and cider suffers from for not having, as an industry. But at the same time you've just got lots of people trying to put in there bit. Fine cider, personally, I don't have a problem with the term fine cider.
Cider is wine... it’s just not true is it?! I understand that it maybe makes it a bit more simple for people or helps people to understand that cider can be regarded in the same way as wine as it’s made in the same way so you know, that might be something that people weren't aware of.
I think it's important to use terminology that crosses over into beer and wine so that you can draw those people in but to have a statement as simple as cider is wine, I don't think it's really that helpful.
But then fine cider for me is something that I use quite often and I don't think the people who make the stuff that you wouldn’t describe as fine cider would have an issue with that.
Gabe: I suppose my background, although the passion and inspiration started from being Ross on Wye. I then subsequently was a cider maker at Westons for a few years, they’re the fifth biggest producer in the UK, and worked for Heineken for three years as their comms manager and was the comms officer for UK Cider Industry for a year as well. So I've worked for everybody big and small.
I think maybe more so than some people I have a bit more of the big tent theory and a rising tide floats all boats. I want cider as a category to succeed. I'm not anti big cider, far from it. Big cider is important for medium cider is important for small cider, which is important for orchards, which is important for pubs, and for drinkers. It is all good. And as long as people are undertaking things with integrity, and with good intention and you want to call it fine, because you want to emphasise a particular time, place, or occasion, brilliant! If you want to do it in a cork, in a wire, even if the liquid inside maybe doesn't necessarily fit with how you think it might come out, I don’t mind.
If you start to say things that are actually misleading, then that's more of a challenge. But even if I don't personally agree with some of the language and the terminology that gets utilised, it's still completely different to where things were five years ago, where there was nothing and nobody talking. So the fact that there are people talking about fine cider or cider is wine, go for it, brilliant. It's somebody who is trying to apply a value perception and trying to advocate cider in a different way. And that for me that's, ultimately it's got to be a good thing.
Martyn: Just the use of language to differentiate product and technique, there’s a plethora of it, all at our disposal. The benefit for, and the downfall for, craft beer and natural wine, is that they benefit from their kind of ambiguity. It is laid out but not fully, the assumption is often that it's the small makers who are doing a radical thing. Then the big guys kind of appropriate it and just gets kind of lost in the end.
The problem with cider is you've got all those voices who aren't all saying the same thing, so you can't really establish anything. So when someone goes out on a limb and says “cider is wine”. By doing so pulling in wine drinkers into the world of this drink, which is great. But then some people go: actually, you're degrading cider by saying it's something it isn’t.
I used to say, like, ‘oh, this is like, apple beer, apple wine’. If it gets your lips on a glass and there's gold in there, it's winner winner for me. But the problem is, it's pulled in so many directions now and there's weird tension about it. We spoke about it, Emperor’s New Clothes, on stuff like pet-nat being discussed in cider. Saying, pet nat, well, that's that bottle condition for us.
At the end of the day, if it means that first time drinkers of cider at a bar or shop get greeted with something that's sublime, that's the goal. How we get there that can be debated and everything but I feel like for the first time, I've been hearing it for years and years, cider is coming up, it’s coming up. But this year was the first one where I was like, oh it actually happened. So I just say let’s keep going.
Rachel: Talking about the future of cider, this segues on to our last question, thank you again everybody, good work. What do you all think we're going to see from cider over the next couple of years? And how do you see Neutral Cider Hotel factoring into that as well?
Gabe: Over the last 18 months, I’ve been advocating for a few different things, in order for this cider movement, to realise itself or realise the opportunity. There needs to be more non-UK cider available in the UK market, I think that is going to be an important catalyst. And an awareness. For consumers it might just add another layer to the intrigue of, ‘this is worth investigating.’ So very brave people such as Grant importing interesting and awesome ciders into the UK, that's going to be something that I think is going to continue. Hopefully, it'll be Grant importing more rather than having other importers obviously.
Grant: There’s room for everyone!
Gabe: So I was advocating for, and it’s a lazy term, but the concept of craft keg. So basically, ciders from Pilton or Nightingales or Pulpt in a keg. Although the 750ml aspect to cider is really critical, and is really crucial, and where volume is something that's not happening right now and value but smaller volume is, it's a really important focus. If cider is going to realise some of the volume and ultimately some of the cash potential associated with it, it’s I think largely going to be in a format that is going to be known and understood to the majority of consumers, which is by having a pint or a half pint down the pub. And if you can transition people from Strongbow or any of the mainstream pints, to incorporate occasionally, or entirely switch out, to Nightingale's Songbird or Pulpt Flare or whatever it may be. I think that is going to be a really important thing that obviously hasn't played out this year.
And it'll be interesting to see what happens going forward. Will pubs be more or less willing to experiment and play on things? I don't know. That’ll have to play out. Low and No? I think that’s an area that needs to be investigated more.
Personally, the wild card is dry. Because when you go on to any kind of calorie calculator online, whether you're looking at calorie control health, these kinds of things, it always gives a figure for a pint of cider equating to 250 calories and I've done the maths. I was that bored a few weeks ago that I worked out the calculation.
Most people always assume that ciders are really sweet and that's fair because most of the mainstream ciders are really sweet. But if you just look at dry cider from a calorific point of view, they're considerably lower than many, many other drinks and I'm not saying that It should be positioned as a healthy drink per se. But from that point of view and also from a flavour point of view, this next generation coming through who are really conscious about what it is that they're drinking, to be able to explain that.
And I wonder whether, over the next few years, again, the opportunity, the story, that cider has to tell is around sustainability in its broadest context. Firstly, around the orchards and the amazing economic, environmental and social impacts that they have. And also the fact that cider making, relative to brewing, is lower carbon intensive as well - from the brewing process and from raw material, and transportation, etc. So it's probably not quite there yet. I think it is going to be something increasingly important in decision making.
Martyn: And what about the show?
Gabe: Thank you, another great Gabe monologue there. Well, I think we will be talking about it all along the way. We're going to be partly reflecting upon the things that are happening but also advocating it as well. I think maybe that's why the show works so well, is that because we've got insight into such various different parts of cider, geographically, trade, experience and contacts. We're all independently getting our hands on bits of inside information and presenting that so I think it’s the opportunity to be right at the forefront of the conversation, the dialogue, if nothing else.
Grant: In terms of cider and where we might see it going, I mentioned it earlier, I think probably urban cideries or non orchard based cideries, will start to grow. I also think as as part of that, the sustainability will come in to play where some of those cideries, as a way of saving money but alsoto address the environmental impact will probably start using waste apples, excess apples, not necessarily from supermarkets but going scrumping to find some trees or like Find & Foster have done with orchards down in Devon, and bring them back to life. That's something that I would love to see. And I think it would be a great thing for the whole culture of cider.
Provenance is something that is becoming more important for people and certainly our generation. So I think the terroir in cider will be explored a bit more. We've got Ryan from Caledonian, he’s growing cider apples that are traditionally grown in the southwest of England, but also, he's got trees that are indigenous to the Black Isle in Scotland and he collects samples from the local area.
So I think that an explanation of terroir, and provenance will be a far bigger thing. And I guess that also maybe comes alongside the language aspect as well, but we’ve probably covered that enough. I think that it'll be interesting to see different cider makers using the same apples in different places and being able to compare and contrast which is not something that cider has been able to do too much of. We’ve seen a bit of it this year, so hopefully more of that next year.
In terms of the podcast. Yeah, I think what I've enjoyed, personally is, like you said, being able to sit and chat with pals and have a drink, which has been restricted this year. But also, I feel proud of the calibre of folk we've had on. I think It's been pretty great to be able to go straight in with James and Susanna, and Tom Oliver in terms of the cider makers and Martin at Pilton as well. And we’ve broadened it out with Lily and yourself [Helen] and hopefully we're going to do a bit more of that in terms of looking into other industries, other areas of the world basically, that we can just sit and have a chat about and then, you know, maybe bring it back into cider.
But it seems to be that what people enjoy is the fact that we just sit and chat. So I think just trying to keep the people that we have on interesting, because we've probably got a limited amount of chat and are probably running out already. I think giving people a platform for their voice that maybe don't have it or wouldn't have it. We're getting there with exactly how we want it to be, it’s kind of a learning process and I guess it always will be, but I feel like we're getting closer to what we want and we’ll just have to keep trying and making mistakes and adapting each episode.
Martyn: Well it’s only 11 episodes in, which seems crazy for how many hours we've put in already. But, thinking about cider, kind of as a whole. It's an interesting one where the benefit craft beer had in the first lockdown, and everything in the change and dynamic was the kind of the steer on it was much shorter than cider. Compared to something like brewing, where obviously, you've got hop contracts and everything, but it felt like beer could navigate change quite drastically in a month, whereas for a lot of cider makers it's like “fuck I've taken on this contract, I've got these apples, I've pressed them”. Unfortunately, pubs closing means like “well, I've got all this juice I bought specifically for a size and package that doesn't exist right now”.
Linking on a positive note of that, I think that a lot of the drinks I was excited about, and I know we spoke about on the show this year, were experiments done last year in the harvest before. And it was a lot of risk taking actually. I think a lot of the cider makers saw that be accepted, praised quite quickly. A lot of the names that we threw around weren't just the same four that we would have spoken about the year before. So I think a lot of those makers are going to be experimenting from this harvest, and then these drinks coming out this year are going to be incredible.
I think language is a good one again, I know we've hammered it home, but we're all still developing it, we discuss it on the show all the time, and just more people putting more things forward is going to come forward in this year and hopefully it won’t have the same fatigue that people get. I hope we're not gonna see the Brut IPA in cider terms where people say “we're fucking bored of pet-nats now”. There’s just not enough people making it relatively for it to sort of fluctuate and saturate. But I guess just having people kind of find the thing that they like, all those techniques are out there with cider. And it's about how you communicate them to the drinker rather than ‘oh, we've invented a new style of IPA’. There won't be a New England IPA for cider, I don't think, but I think there'll be a New England IPA drinker who finds the fruit and the flavour in cider.
And, for the podcast, I think, again, it’s 11 episodes in and we're getting there and it's going to be a constant thing. But one of the things I've loved about it so far, is kind of opening it up. So it's not just you're a maker, teach us about how you make cider and give a huge technical kind of monologue to the listener.
I can see us this year getting more people who are different in with different voices and just get more people into cider as well. So just like just sharing sort of those worlds. The more wine guests we have cider, beer, music, film, it's like just having that kind of lexicon and discussion increased in the name of a drink we fucking love.
Helen: It'll definitely make it less insular, which is the nice thing. From our perspective, I mean I've probably been drinking this kind of cider for probably about 18 months. So not that long. I think what you do is really important, because you're bringing all of cider together. There's now so much happening, and maybe you might miss something. Now there's somewhere for everyone to catch that information. And I like the fact that you do a news segment. It's so important. We listened to the first episode together, didn’t we Rach, when you were living with me? And we just laughed the whole way through. I've loved listening, I think you teach a lot of people, but it's also a very warm show. It's just a really fun one to listen to. And I think especially for you Rach, you kind of came into cider a little bit later, but from a wine perspective it’s been really interesting for you, hasn't it?
Rachel: Yeah so I've come into cider from a wine background, so I guess at first I was like ‘cider is wine’ because to me so many of the processes are very similar. But as I've learned more about cider, I've become more respectful of the difference between the two. And with Neutral Cider Hotel, I mean, I was like ‘oh a podcast by three men. Brilliant. That's exactly what we're missing right now.’ But it was so warm and so funny. I think also, especially with the last year, we've all kind of missed those chats in the pub, so that connection and the laughter, I love it. The variety of people that you interview is really interesting, because it's so many different angles. I listened to the Lily Waite episode today and it was so good, I mean she's brilliant anyway, but it's just so interesting hearing about cider in so many different ways. I've read some books and I've been drinking a lot more of it, but this is the thing that's taught me more about cider in the last year. So I'm very grateful for it and I'm really looking forward to listening to more of it this year.
