Behind the Bar with Little Wine
Last month I sat down with Christina Rasmussen and Daniela Pillhofer of LITTLEWINE. LITTLEWINE is an online bottle shop I have been obsessed with for some time now, aiming to bring their customers closer to their winemakers and organic(+) farming methods through their wine content.
Having never met Christina and Daniela before this conversation, I was blown away by their warmth, generosity and passion. Their vision for what wine can be and how it can be communicated is so exciting and I look forward to learning from LITTLEWINE as their journey progresses.
We talked about tasting as a personal truth, the importance of wine being made with kindness towards its people as well as its environment, and the role white wine professionals have in making the wine world a more diverse and inclusive place. I hope you take as much from reading their words as I did from listening to them.
Are you both happy to start by telling me a little bit about who you are and what you do and how you came into wine?
Christina: I joined the wine industry, kind of inadvertently. I grew up in the UK, but my whole family's from Denmark. Looking back on it, when you think about what your career is going to become, you always have dreams or ideas as a kid. I was always very much animal obsessed, and nature obsessed growing up. So I think I always knew I wanted to do something within that realm. I also loved writing. So ever since I could write I kept a diary, and would write, I had a series of novels about a horse. I call them novels. I was eight. They were eight pages long. So I knew I wanted to be a writer, I knew I loved nature and wanted to combine the two, but didn't know how.
I went to university to study French, because I always loved language. I think by knowing another language, you're able to immerse yourself fully in that culture and to be able to really level yourself with people whose mother tongue is that language.
Then I started thinking, right, what can I do with my French degree, that also somehow involves my interest in nature. I started looking for internships, because when you do a language degree in the UK, you need to take a year abroad. And I came across an internship for a winery in Burgundy. And I thought, that sounds interesting. I like wine. I grew up with wine on the table, my Dad loves wine, my Mum used to import wine into Denmark. But sadly, she's actually become allergic since, anaphylaxis, which is terrible.
Long story short, I got the internship. Moved to Burgundy, and really fell in love with it. Although I guess it took me a while longer to really put two and two together in terms of the organic versus conventional side of wine. And that's when I really started to dive deeper into organics.
And at the time, I also started a wine blog, which is now defunct, it was called Vintage of all Kinds. There are actually a few of the older articles on my old website. Bit by bit, I started to write more and more about wines that were organically farmed, and made with care for the land.
In 2014, I took my first job in the trade for a wine PR and consultancy called Westbury Communications. We worked with various regions and wineries, helping them to develop their place in the UK market. One of our clients was the Beaujolais wine region. Beaujolais in particular is well known for a small group of people who really went against the grain in the 80s, seeking a more natural path when conventional farming was at its peak. They had realised they wanted something else.
When I was learning about this, it struck a chord for me, too. That's when I really fell down the rabbit hole of organic and natural wine. It formed the basis for most of my blogs, and I began doing some freelance wine writing on the side; slowly but surely beginning to explore journalism. After five years with Westbury, I had progressed all the way from intern to account director. I began to think, okay, what's next? Because as much as I loved that role, the company, and the ins-and-outs of the wine trade, I knew I wanted to write full-time.
I didn't want to go in house for a wine publication, because I sort of saw that as somewhat selling my soul to a publication whose ethos or philosophies I don't necessarily align with. And so I was thinking about doing the freelance plunge and that coincided with me meeting Daniela and that coincided with us co-founding LITTLEWINE.
Daniela: My name is Daniela. I'm originally from Austria where I grew up close to Vienna. In my early childhood, I was already surrounded by wine, because in 1999, my dad got introduced to wine by his best friend who already enjoyed wine. He took my dad to a couple of winemakers and eventually got him on the wine bandwagon too. Eventually, my dad would take my mum with him, but he would also take me and my sister with them. So since I was six, seven years old, I would go and see winemakers. Back then, of course, the whole topic of wine did not interest me at all, in fact, it was a really boring topic for many years to come.
But still, it was kind of part of the culture that I grew up in Austria - that you buy a wine from the winemaker directly and have a really personal experience. You don't necessarily buy from shops as much because each year, you're looking forward to the new vintage, visiting the winemakers and picking up your favourite wines.
It was about 12 years later that I decided to work in wine, by accident, more or less. In 2012, I moved to London for my bachelor's degree. I already had the passion and will to start my own business one day but I was completely clueless about what I wanted to do. I remembered the passion that I had slowly developed back home together with my dad, and so my partner and I decided to actually start a wine business together by showcasing wines that we enjoyed back home and that weren't available in the country yet.
So we started a little wine shop in Boxpark Shoreditch. Back then it was nine winemakers that were not represented in the UK yet. Neither my partner nor I had a single connection to anybody working in wine, not in Austria, not in the UK. So it was also intuitive for us to call ourselves Newcomer Wine - it was a fit from multiple angles. We were introducing new winemakers, we were so totally new to the industry. I've never studied wine. So today, everything I know… I think in wine you never know really, but everything I feel in wine and how I express myself has been self taught mainly by engaging with winemakers and drinking wine.
Falling in love with wine was easy as soon as I got to directly engage with winemakers - it took away the intimidating parts that are often associated with wine. In the early days,, it was mainly about spending time in a showroom. But once you actually spend more time with the winemakers you get to see the vineyards, you get to see their cellar, you get to taste from barrels, you get to hang out with them over dinner or lunch. Suddenly, it was surprisingly intuitive to relate to their wines.
Part of me today still finds the wine world super intimidating, not having learned or not having been taught. There is still a part of me that thinks, well, it's risky to express your feelings because there's almost always somebody who knows better and who's gonna teach you a lesson in smelling something that maybe I'm not smelling or that maybe I'm not feeling. So there's still a lot of wine insecurity inside me. I think it's actually the first time I’m mentioning this, and it’s something that I will definitely be working towards to hopefully inspire more people to speak freely about wine, because it's sadly still so intimidating and I can very much relate to it. But I can also relate to the fact that once you speak with the winemakers, you’ll see they are people like all of us, some of them do skateboarding, some of them go to the same vacation places we go to, some of them love burgers, others love lobsters, they’re people who we can all relate to.
So this was kind of the spark where I thought, well, if we can bring winemakers and consumers together, then everybody should feel more empowered in expressing themselves through wine and by expressing I don't mean tasting notes, such as oh, this is sour cherry, this is plum, this is some fruit I've never heard of. It's really down to: Do I like the wine or do I not like the wine?
I love to say, taste is a personal truth and personal truths are always true. So there is no right or wrong in wine, really. There are people who enjoy a mousy wine and that's completely fine, in my opinion, if they enjoy the taste while being educated about it, but it doesn't mean that I need to enjoy that equally.
So yeah, I started the wine import business and still had the feeling that there needs to be something to bring people together through wine by connecting winemakers, wine consumers and wine professionals. I had the rough idea for starting something called LITTLEWINE and I knew I didn't want and couldn’t do it on my own. Christina, when I met her I really resonated with her beliefs and her skillset was so different to mine. So I thought, okay, we could really pull something off together.
I approached her and we were lucky to then co-found LITTLEWINE together as a platform that really connects wine, people and nature, as we like to say. And still today, I've never read a book about wine, but what I enjoy is engaging with people who enjoy wine, and people who don't enjoy wine, and slowly develop the passion together over a glass of wine.
Christina: I think that's something important as well, because Daniela is a very academic person, and in terms of her business studies has already got her MBA, it’s so impressive. Wine doesn't have to be academic as well, but I feel like so often it's seen as this very, very academic thing, which can take the fun out of it.
Rachel: I completely agree. I've been talking about this a little bit this week. I’ve done my WSET up to level three, so I learned wine in exam conditions. I learnt how to taste as if it was an exam and I always felt like every time I've been asked to taste it's a test. I think what you said about tasting being your own personal truth is so accurate, because tasting is subjective and I look at aroma wheels that I’ve been given and I haven’t tasted half of the things on there but I'm supposed to pick them out anyway. But I do know tastes from my personal experience and my history, and that is just as important, I think.
Daniela: I also think it's important to mention that if we talk about taste profiles, if we take a strawberry, for example, strawberries, at least in my experience, taste very differently. And then we can even get more and more complex. Is it a ripe strawberry? Is it a green strawberry? Is it an organic strawberry? I picked strawberries because strawberries are for me often very disappointing because the majority of strawberries today, unfortunately, are made for speed and high growth. And sadly we don't really engage with fruits and their seasonality anymore.
So, the taste of a strawberry is very personal. And probably somebody relates more to strawberry as in the strawberry we know from yoghurts, and some people have a very different taste of a strawberry coming from their garden. So when I taste wine with people, I just love to ask, do you like it? And that's already a good indication. It's really bizarre that, when we talk about foods, or even when we talk about any other drink, we don't really get that complex. But with wine, there is this complexity that historically has been celebrated, and, sadly has put a lot of people off. But I think that's also the exciting thing about the natural wine movement, because while not everything is perfect in the natural wine world, by far, it is the more relatable beverage for many more people who are just getting into wine.
Christina: Looking at WSET and looking at traditional wine studies, versus incorporating more sort of philosophical or situational, contextual tasting notes, there are pros and cons, to WSET, and I'm in the middle of doing my diploma. I think that the tasting part of it, the thing that frustrates me the most is that you have to use certain buzzwords or fruits and so on to describe certain varieties, which I think just makes tasting notes really boring, because you always have to refer to citrus or to whatever it is. I think, on the other hand, the thing that is valuable with it is that it does teach you how to identify certain varieties by acidity, tannin structure, all that kind of thing. And that is really fun.
Because when you really start to think about wine in that kind of way, you realise, you know, Riesling is always going to have that high acid profile, whereas Viognier will never have that high acid profile. That means that if you do like to do blind tasting, which I love to do, it’s so much fun, it helps. But I think the prescriptive side of the tasting itself is what we struggle with. And that's something that we really try to take on board, when we write our own tasting notes. If there is one fruit that stands out in the wine, of course, we'll mention it because that's valuable.
And also, I mean, I'm completely obsessed and fascinated by flavour. So things like pepper, that's actually a chemical compound called Rotundone, that does appear in certain wines. It's the same compound. So that's cool, because it's literally the same thing that you're tasting. That's part of what makes taste so fascinating.
But what's equally important is when do you want to be drinking that wine? Is it a party wine? Is it a wine for thinking? Is it a wine for relaxing? Or is it a wine, I don't know, to celebrate with friends. And that's something that so often has been left out, but actually is equally as important as how the wine tastes for us.
Strohmeier
Rachel: I wanted to talk about your website, which is so beautiful. What I love is that you share so much in terms of stories of the winemakers and information about the grapes, and I think you don't always see that level of generosity of knowledge and information. I wanted to ask you about how both of your experiences with education, or not, especially in terms of formal qualifications, have influenced how you talk about the wine on LITTLEWINE?
Christina: I mean, this is something I could write a thesis about. Like Daniela said, I think there's an important side to education and learning the basics and beyond in terms of regions, what goes in certain regions, where grape varieties come from, what the history of that grape variety is…
I guess the thing that frustrates me, and continues to frustrate me with the WSET course, to some degree, is that it focuses a little bit too much on the AOCs, and the DOCs and whatnot. So which grape variety is allowed in which region and so on. And that, for me, was frustrating, because it means that you end up learning almost nothing about something like Pineau d’Aunis.
You can't make a varietal Pineau D'Aunis wine as AOC Anjou, Saumur or Touraine, hence nearly all of the varietal Pineau d'Aunis we see is sold as vin de France. Therefore, you end up learning very little about interesting varieties like these in traditional wine education, but far more about something like Cabernet Franc. Not to say Cab Franc isn't interesting, because it is, but you see what I mean... It becomes a little restrictive.
And so that side is what frustrated me because there's just as much to learn about something like Pineau d’Aunis, as there is about something like Montrachet or where the Grand Crus in Burgundy are. It's just another side to education; one that hasn't really been explored yet. I suppose in the MW, students are able to delve into private study further, but not many of us can afford the MW. So we hope that LITTLEWINE can become a resource for the regions and varieties who perhaps haven't yet had the recognition they deserve.
In a similar way to when you think about the amazing wines of Tenerife, and the Canaries, and how that's possibly influenced the vine material that you find in the New World that was brought across by boats, in the 16th and 17th centuries. And, again, because Tenerife isn't Montrachet there's not so much information about it in traditional wine education, even though from a historical and qualitative perspective the wines made there are fascinating.
So I guess that's really inspired me to delve more into the things that I wanted to learn about, and I couldn't find the information about myself. Because if you search for Montrachet on the internet, or in WSET, you'll find so much information and it's all the same information. And obviously, Montrachet is an amazing wine (I even wrote a section in my university thesis on the etymology of Montrachet), and an amazing place, and it deserves its place in the history and of wine and the current great wines of the world, but there's so much more to explore outside of the realm of the famous classics.
Everything that I've learnt with regards to the lesser-trodden pathways of wine has fascinated me; as these are things that are often left to one side. So, I've mentally taken a note of my discoveries in the hope that others might find them fascinating, too. But at the same time, a lot of this stuff is very geeky and the language can be very complex and difficult to understand. I'm not from a science background at all. I did my sciences at GCSE and then I dropped them. And although that frustrates me now because also as an amateur winemaker, it would be great to actually have all of that knowledge fresh in my mind as opposed to having to re study it. I actually do think it works in my favour as a communicator, because it means that I have to write things in a way that I understand as a non scientist.
So for example, on the website, there's a piece that I'm really proud of, which is called Free the Grape Seed and that's all about vine material. How vines are propagated by cuttings as opposed to plants from seed. And I'm really happy with how it turned out, I hope it's the kind of piece that everyone can read and understand, not just someone that has WSET at level three or diploma or a PhD in some kind of plant biology. I think there's a place for so many different people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking in the trades. So they should all be celebrated. And everyone needs to play to their own strengths. And I guess, for me, what I see my strength is, is really communicating these very complex topics in ways that are relatable and easier to understand.
Daniela: Coming from the non-taught background, I think there's a big upside in the sense that when, for example, I'm in a restaurant and I get the wine list, I meanwhile have the knowledge to the degree that I know where regions are, and I know lots of different winemakers, and how they work - both in the vineyards and in the cellar. And in some cases, I know specific wines that I enjoy on the list, but I never look for a specific Cru as I don't have the knowledge to say, oh, this is underpriced or this is overpriced for this particular Cru, and I think this helps because you approach a wine selection more open minded, as you have fewer boxes to tick to truly enjoy the wine.
Michael Grindl
Generally, I tend to always pick a wine that I am not familiar with, because I think a big part of the wine world fun is that you can constantly try something new - whether it’s a new vintage, a new cuvee or maker. If in doubt,you can always ask somebody.
And I definitely have a tendency to drink wine from winemakers who I've met, because I love to put my money where I know the people behind it are kind, friendly people. When you have so much to pick from, it helps to know that you are putting your money towards a kind person and by that I don’t just mean that they're kind to their customers, but also kind to everybody they're working with, including the environment. I must say the part of putting the environment and the people into the equation is not because there aren't tasty wines from winemakers who treat the environment in a different philosophy than what I believe in, but it's because it makes the wine feel different. and it's aligned with my personal beliefs.
There's no reason to drink wine that you don't enjoy and there's no reason to drink wine from people who you don't want to support because they're not fulfilling their responsibilities towards nature, society and everyone they interact with.
Rachel: I’m really glad you said that because that is one of the questions that I was going to ask you. What I've been thinking about a lot recently is the role that someone who buys wine and then sells it is in making sure that they are working with people who are not only kind to the environment, but kind to their people as well. How do you go about making sure that the people that you buy from, and that you're selling and promoting, are not only ethical in their sustainability, but also in terms of the labour and the people that work with?
Christina: That actually leads exactly into something I was going to mention before. In terms of all of the wines and the winemakers, we feature in the long format articles, they’re all winemakers that we either know personally, some of them in some instances are very good friends, or they're people that we've met several times and interviewed. So from a journalistic perspective, that's me doing as much due diligence as I can. If for example, I interview someone that I haven't met in person that I've come across on social media and engaged with many times, I would know someone who knows them, through whom I can do the due diligence. And that's really important, because it's, I mean, it's a trust thing, really, at the end of the day.
France Breton of Domaine Catherine et Pierre Breton
Of course, if we visit a winemaker, even five times a year, we can see what they're doing, but we don't know what happens on the days, we're not there and that’s where we have to trust them. But I do think that importers should be doing more due diligence as well. Zev Rovine Selections in the US is working on a working contract,in order to address sexist behaviour, racist behaviour, workers’ rights and responsible farming. Our friend Icy Liu of Ungrafted did a podcast episode on it. And particularly, I don't know if you saw, in light of the Valentina Passalacqua case, which no one really knows exactly what's going on there. Simon Woolf wrote the best piece that I've seen on it. But that's a prime example, I mean, if the allegations are true, of something really terrible that should never happen. And so, I mean, of course, you never know, and something can come out of the woodwork that's horrific, and then that has to be rectified, but I would say we go as as far as we possibly can, in terms of making sure that everyone that we portray are good people at the end of the day.
Daniela: One thing to add is I think we are very lucky in the sense that we've been in the industry for a couple of years and we've met and visited people multiple times, not just oncet. That's always an additional insurance factor, to see the place. As an importer, I think quite critically about selling wine from a winemaker that you've not visited or that you've not seen. I think, as an importer, you really need to be that agent, that representation in the country. And you really can only represent someone, if you get engaged with them, the absolute minimum is that you've visited once.
Of course, the pandemic prevented some of these diligences in the way that we couldn't travel as much. But I think we can't use the pandemic as an excuse for skipping the due diligence, rather, it must be an excuse to take out some speed of the sourcing mechanisms.
And there is definitely, as Christina said, a lot of responsibility on the importer side to do the due diligence and know what you're selling. But I also think there is a big part of responsibility to the consumer. If you see a product that is too cheap to be true, you should probably also question how can that be? And ask questions: How is it farmed? How much is labour paid? How much is the winemaker receiving for that bottle? And we're not even talking just about supermarket price points of £5 where the duty already is £2.23. Then you deduct the costs of the bottle, then you want the supermarkets to make a cut (often they're not doing that as it's just a product to get you into the supermarket), then there’s shipping involved, storing involved, and then you add up the numbers and know that the people who make the wine are not seeing anything of what you're spending on. So if a price is too cheap to be true, I would always encourage everybody to just question it.
We're not stocking wines at LITTLEWINE at 10 pounds or 12 pounds, not because we don't want to, but simply because we haven’t found wines at these price points that meet our criteria. Price point is a factor that we take into consideration whether to stock a wine or not, eventually, but it must be the very last factor to consider, you need to tick all the other boxes before you even talk about the price point. So yeah, that's where I would encourage consumers to ask more questions - just as we should in any other industry.
Christina: One of our life long missions is to re educate on that perspective. Because, unfortunately, wine has been hammered down price wise to the point where often it is unsustainable, and it means that people have the perception that wine can cost X amount, and be good for the environment and for the grower and for the people who are employed by that winery, and unfortunately, that's not really the case with a lot of wine.
Daniela: We’re all in for having wines at approachable price points, that's important. But if the price point that allows that level is not £5 or £10, but £15, then I’d encourage to make it one bottle for a special occasion rather than trying to drink wine every night. We're really talking about a luxury product. We're not talking about an essential, we're not talking about water, we’re not talking about food. We're talking about something that should be a highlight in everybody's life, a really cool experience. It should not be a beverage to quench one’s thirst. Just like with meat, where we also have great conversations on maybe eating less meat and when you eat meat, make it a really well sourced sustainable piece of meat and not eat meat for a price point that allows you to have meat every day.
Rachel: It's something that I think about a lot as well, how to educate people on why wine costs the way it does, and actually why arguably, it does need to cost more, because if you're only making one product a year, at the minimum, sometimes it's a lot longer than that, then your income happens on a yearly basis, as opposed to like a weekly, monthly or whatever. Then there’s the issue of hands, we want everything handpicked, but then the questions don't go any further. We don't ask how much those hands are paid. So the more conversations about, this is why things cost the way they do and this is a luxury product and these are the corners that are cut to bring that price down and being more about buying less often, but better.
Christina: I mean, from Burum’s perspective as well, there has to be time to drink beer and cider too. So by saying, drink a little bit less wine, that also makes space for other, amazing beverages that also deserve to be celebrated, that perhaps are more possible at those price points. Like beer, which can more easily be made on a much larger scale. That also then leads into the other element of LITTLEWINE, which really is more the artisan side, because, of course, there are other great co-ops that are working organically. You can get wines, for cheaper price points, and they're great wines, but they are also often made on a much larger scale and hence inoculated and fined or filtered, as this is simply safer at that size. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, and the wines are great, but that is not what LITTLEWINE is and there are other people celebrating those wines. We can't be the go to place for all wine.
Pedres Blanques
Rachel: I read the piece you wrote recently Christina, on LITTLEWINE, about diversity activists in the industry and I thought that it was just a really important piece in the amount of different people and voices, and the stories you talked about. You reported that 86% of people in the UK wine industry identify as white. So we’re the ones that need to put the work in here, it’s our problem to address. I wanted to talk to both of you really, off the back of writing that and the conversations that you had, what do you think needs to happen?
Christina: So much. I think, especially coming up to the International Women's Day, in terms of white women, when you look at a lot of the articles that have been written in the past, about sexism and wine, it's just addressing white women. And that's very problematic; we need to see more intersectionality in the wine trade. It’s a huge topic.
And we are the majority in that, being white people, we have to do the work. Because we can't rely on people of colour, Indigenous people and Black people to have to do the work for everybody and nor should we have to rely on them to educate us. There's so much material out there for us to educate ourselves and it's actually selfish of us, to ask them, to educate us. It can be a horrible experience for them to have to relive certain situations that have occurred.
I think in the piece that I wrote, that was really well highlighted by Simonne Mitchelson, who's a winemaker in the US. She mentioned that every time that someone asks her to explain her story, you know, it can be quite harrowing to relive certain memories and damaging and upsetting when really what she wants to be doing is focusing on a brighter future. I feel like some of the publications that have come out have focused a lot more on the shock factor, and highlighting the racist incidents that have happened. Which obviously is important, because people have to understand that this is going on and a lot of people are completely ignorant to it, unfortunately. But at the same time, it's also wrong just to dwell on the negatives, because that can actually end up making the divide even greater to some degree.
So I think while it's important to explain what's been happening, and definitely important to give anyone their space who wants to discuss what's happened, first and foremost, it's important to give people their voice and to elevate that voice so that everyone can hear their voice, it's also equally important to focus on all the good that's come from it and the good that's happening. As white people, anything that we can do to elevate people's voices from Black, Indigenous, Asian communities is crucial. Also, remembering that so many of these people will have had their inboxes exploding and people constantly asking for comments and that also takes its toll. So I think we have to be really mindful of that, and do our work as far as we can on our own, from pieces that are out there, and books that are out there. Then of course, we can engage and ask more specific questions of how we can help. But I think we need to do our own work.
In terms of what's been happening, it's been so amazing to see so many initiatives start, which I outlined in the piece. I've also joined The Roots Fund’s mentorship programme, which has been great. I have a wonderful mentee who's just an incredible young woman and I can't wait to follow her path. I think that we'll see more and more initiatives thrive, such as the new announcement of the Gérard Basset scheme as well, where they're going to aim to raise a million plus pounds to fund various diversity initiatives. It's really exciting.
Because I mean, we have to get better. It's just not good enough as it is. And how we go about approaching that in other European countries, I don't necessarily know, because there are so many other other problems involved. I mean, in that piece, as well, I mentioned Laura Lorenzo, and the problems that Senegalese migrant workers face in terms of getting employment in Spain, and it's just a disaster. So, you know, these are also massive political hurdles to overcome, that are somewhat beyond me as an individual. But there are things that we can be campaigning for, and that we can be spreading awareness about.
Daniela: If I may add to that, last year, and it's shocking, that we speak about last year, the whole movement had a very different speed and reach and it's sad to see that the speed, has decreased so dramatically. I don't know how you feel about it, but last last year, for me, has been a moment when, to be honest, it was the first time that I proactively reflected on my personal behaviour in my personal role in the diverse community that I thought I always saw. And I quickly realised that it was really naive to believe that the wine world is diverse.
But to be honest, before the discussion sparked last year, I didn’t think about it this way. I've personally, also been guilty of internal thoughts such as I don't see colour, because I did not understand. I had not put conscious reflection into the conversations before it was a topic that was out there. And it took, for me, a lot of reading, a lot of conversations. Christina and myself, we've been talking about the topic a lot. I've shared openly that I have a lot of insecurity about speaking about something where I think I cannot personally relate as a super privileged white woman. But I then realised that it's not about speaking for somebody, but it's about proactively supporting people when they speak for themselves.
For example yesterday, I joined an online seminar on the idea of ally-ship and what ally-ship is and how that is the role we need to take to support people, but not pretend like we know better, because we can never relate as white women. I can never relate to a person of colour. It's such a sensible topic that needs so much learning, that I'm still in the stages, I'm still reading, I'm still educating myself. As Christina said, I'm not reaching out to people of colour to make them educate myself. There's plenty of resources out there, including the article on LITTLEWINE, which I think Christina has done a tremendous job on.
At LITTLEWINE we have these discussions a lot on how we deal with the topic. When it comes to hiring, we want to take into consideration that we want to hire a diverse workforce. And for that, we need to see colour, because we need to see colour in our company. And that's why we can't just pretend everything will sort itself out.
I’m not even sure if we will be alive by the time we can truly speak about a diverse wine world, but this is not an excuse for us not to tackle it. Because even if we make small steps in our generations, ideally, we will eventually see our children, grandchildren, etc. be in a world where this is something that is celebrated. I really just want to sit down together at the same table, have a glass of wine, and everybody must feel inclusive. That's what I would love to see, but it's a far, far journey from there.
Christina: I echo all of your thoughts. It's just about doing the work, first and foremost. Because I also think there are a lot of people out there who call themselves allies, but are they actually doing the work? So I think it's so important to do the work in whatever sphere you can, because we can't change the world individually, but each one of us working in different sectors of the industry can all help in different ways. It's not something that can be done overnight, it’s just about doing as much as you can individually as often as you can.
And then it's about really propelling the speed, because I think I've had so many people say that they realise it's not enough just to not be racist. But just by, you know, not being racist, that doesn't progress society. And so it's really about being anti racist, as much as we can, and elevating people above us. In my experience, if you are in a privileged position, and if you're earning a good salary, or if you're in a good job, if an opportunity presents itself to you, then it's about maybe giving that opportunity to someone else. Choosing a talented person of colour or a Black person, someone who is from a more diverse background so that their voice can get out there further and inspire others, because we also need to find these diverse people from more diverse backgrounds to enter the industry. And if they only see white people everywhere, that's not exactly the most welcoming image. So the more people who we can get their voices out there, the more we can promote a more diverse future for the industry.
Rachel: I think that's it, it’s the supporting and encouraging and making sure that people feel seen and safe as opposed to speaking for them isn't it? And knowing which work needs to be done by yourself, and what work and space you give to someone else.
Daniela: It’s also about, you know, if in doubt, just ask. Last year, I was so anxious about using the wrong terminology. Because I mean, growing up in two languages, we have this debate as well, in the German speaking regions, how to find the right terminology. We've had this discussion, with the team as well, this week for International Women's Day, about how we actually frame that wording to make it as inclusive as possible. And it's tough and the good thing about it being tough terminology wise, is that we are such a diverse and multi -faceted, exciting community worldwide, that it's tough to find a term that fits every possibility. Because if we had an easy terminology, it would mean that we are all fitting into one box.
And importantly, if somebody gets it wrong, don't assume they want to hurt anybody, but just maybe they didn't know, but they would love to learn. So offer an opportunity to share your knowledge if you know more about the topic. As I mentioned, I'm still educating myself on the topic a lot. And eventually, just as in the wine world, I'm not the most confident in public, so I’m not the one sharing my thoughts that openly, but I would love to be that person one day. So until then, I'm just educating myself as much as I can, and if in doubt, ask questions. And whenever I can, I reflect on whether what I'm doing, and how I'm expressing myself, is what I want to see from other people.
Christina: The crucial thing is, which Daniela outlined perfectly, is we need to not be afraid of making mistakes. Because we're all going to make mistakes, we're human. It's such a complex and difficult topic. And if we do make mistakes, you know, own up to our mistakes, apologise, listen and learn. And don't get defensive. Because nothing comes from that, all that comes from that is arguments and you end up hurting someone even further. So yeah, if we make a mistake, listen, that's the crucial thing, and then learn from it. And then we all develop and learn as people.
Rachel: I think it's learning to sit with the vulnerability that's going to come with it and the discomfort and going look, I'm not going to get this perfect because I’m white and so I don't know. But I want to have those conversations and learn and ask if I'm not sure. Thank you. I appreciate both of your thoughts and for talking to me about that.
Domaine des Enfants Roussillon
Rachel: One more question, and then we'll wrap this up, you started LITTLEWINE in 2019?
Christina: 2020. We began building it in 2019 but we launched in 2020, our first birthday is on the first of April.
Rachel: Congratulations! Okay, wow, so the entirety of LITTLEWINE has occurred in a pandemic. What has that been like for the first year, doing all of this in a pandemic environment? And what are you looking forward to being able to do when things start to ease off and form some kind of normality afterwards?
Christina: I guess pivot has been the overused word of the century, but it's so true. There was so much pivoting. I mean, first and foremost, we weren't able to be together in person when we launched, which was just a little bit sad. I mean, thank goodness for technology because everything was possible, but we missed each other. We've probably been apart for longer than we've been together, which is also strange as co-founders. But it does mean that we've been able to advance on a technological perspective, much faster. I think it's also reassured us to know, for the future that we can do things remotely. It's actually been somewhat of a blessing in disguise for winemakers because a lot of winemakers who traditionally wouldn't be online, have got online, because they realised they couldn't travel to educate about their wines and sell their wines. So that's actually kind of worked to our benefit.
It's hard to know, from a business perspective, what it would have been like before and after, everyone, of course, suddenly became an online retailer. So competition became very fierce. But we've noticed, I mean, our sales and our club membership is growing in the right direction, and we have a lot of returning customers, which is great. So I think ultimately, it's important never to rush, but rather grow slowly and build a community that values you and give them your time. I mean, our time is our most precious thing. We love our customers so much, so anything that we can give back to them is crucial. I guess in terms of the future, we're starting to brainstorm about product 2.0, which Daniela, I’ll let you touch a little bit more on.
Daniela: Looking back it was absolutely unplanned to launch a company together in the midst of a pandemic. It was bizarre, we were on FaceTime, when we were going live, we were not in the same room. We were not chee-ing with a glass of wine, it was bizarre. Something that we both share, is both Christina and I like to plan and that was absolutely impossible for the entire year. So any plans we made, many of them have been cancelled.
But as Christina already mentioned, there has also been a lot of upsides from launching in a pandemic, because I would argue that we are much more agile than we would without a pandemic. Our thoughts for the business in the future would definitely be different. Many things such as questioning every flight or every travel one takes, that was something that's much more in our heads now compared to earlier. But yeah,, when you're a founder and you're growing, and we're building an exciting team, leadership is always tricky in the early days of starting your own business, but I think remote leadership is even more challenging. Especially since we are a community where I would say all of us like to hang out together and be together in the same space. So that's been a challenge as well. But it also means eventually, we’ll see more flexibility with how we work as a company and the culture we build. We’ve been realising that we don't need to be in the same room to arrive at the same result.
So what Christina briefly touched on, we are currently working on product 2.0, which is basically a product taking into consideration the feedback from our early customers, as well as our ambition to really establish ourselves as the first and leading winemaker-led content platform where, people engage on topics such as wine, nature, and everything that's behind the bottle. We've built the first product totally bootstrapped. We've poured personal savings into our first product, but now it's slowly but surely about time to optimise a lot of the things that were our early learnings. So that's why we're building product 2.0. In an ideal world, we would be in the same world doing weekly product sprints on whiteboards. Currently, we're doing this all online and luckily, there's the tools to do that.
That's a big chunk of work that we're working on in the next couple of months, to really make sure that what we're doing, from a consumer journey is very seamless and intuitive. And we can also bring winemakers together much quicker than we are doing currently. We have more than 100 winemakers on our platform. But we want to be welcoming as many winemakers that,, tick our boxes, as quickly as possible. And there are many winemakers out there, we would love to have featured, but given our current resources, that wasn't possible. We're working on ways to make that happen much quicker. So yeah, that's pretty exciting.
And then, to be honest, I can't wait to be in the same room as the entire team and just celebrate over a bottle of wine. We've been incredibly lucky to find incredible people who have been working with us since the very beginning, I always have the most respect for people who are deciding to join a startup, especially in the early days, especially when there's no external backing yet. It's a very risky move to make. We're just, I think, really humbled to work with an incredible team. And we would love to grow that. I mean, what motivates me more than any increase in sales is actually when you're able to take on another person, because I think that's of course only possible as you grow. That's the nicest thing about building your own company. You can bring more talent on board and grow your team and do so in a fun and exciting way. And build a culture where hopefully most people would love to spend a considerable amount of years with.
Rachel: I think what you've both done, especially in the last year, in the circumstances that everyone's been under, has just been fantastic. I'm really excited to see where it goes and to keep following and learning from the both of you. I really appreciate you giving your time today, thank you so much.
